Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board MIssing registers

I have been very bothered by the registers on mountaintops going missing, but I have REALLY been disturbed by reports that wilderness rangers have been involved in the removals.

To that end, I have taken a couple of actions regarding this.

Last Friday, I had the opportunity to attend a meeting in LA with the Superintendent of SEKI, and their Wilderness Coordinator. When I brought up the issue, both expressed the same sentiment that I have, that these are historic documents, and should be left alone. They were quite bothered by the concept that rangers would be removing them. It is their intention to touch on this subject when they have their annual meeting of the wilderness dept in the spring, and orient the Wilderness Rangers to appropriate conduct.

A couple of months ago, I put in a formal complaint to the chief law enforcement officer for Sierra National Forest, who I had heard was on the same page. The result will be a SEVERELY worded memo to incoming Wilderness Rangers informing them that removal of registers without specific direction to do so would be a violation of regulations, with potential adverse job repercussions, and possible criminal sanctions.

I will continue to interface with managers on the issue, and thought the community would like to know.

Ken,

Thanks for your efforts.

Some of us have been following or even have been involved in the current SAR efforts to find hiker Larry Conn. A recent entry in a summit register could be very valuable to a SAR team, just like a fresh footprint in the snow.

Jim F

I've seen that value on several SAR operations, and I can see it's value as a tool.

were they instructed to do so by their superiors?

This is one of those Urban Myths that's been going around for years. To the extent that I can speak for wilderness rangers (and, actually, I don't...), I can pretty unequivocally say it is NOT true and has NEVER been true.

Does anyone have the slightest evidence or trace where this came from? Where are these "reports" from? Where and who did you hear them from??

I'm just a tad offended that you'd make a formal complaint based on, apparently, no evidence. Also, knowing the direction effluent flows, I would have liked to have heard at least a little defense of backcountry rangers from the officials you spoke to. Just what we need -- a severely worded memo based on rumor and innuendo.

Grrrrrrr!!!

George

Now I'm a little more than annoyed about this: my fave reg on the great Buttermilk Peak is gone... Blast!!



Seriously, Ken, the rangers??? Now that I read this, I'm right with you, George. I've gotten to know a good handful of the backcountry rangers, and I'm offended that it might be intimated that they would stoop that low. And, from a practical standpoint, they know the benefit of the rangers from a SAR perspective.

WTF???

Wow. I guess those rangers must have run through all of their back-country reading material (I also have read that lack of fresh fruit and veggies can lead to register-hoarding, too) and they had to start filching registers for rainy-day session reading. Oh, yes, how interesting to read that Chick-on was on every peak in Yosemite and Taz was only on Dana umteen million times. Oh, wrong park! (well, it has to have reached pandemic proportions by now) Who knows what's next? Perhaps all of those lost cameras, etc., was all one big conspiracy: There is a ranger lurking around every hiker, just waiting from him/her to drop something & Whoosh! The item instantly disappears into the ranger pocket (sort of like all of the single socks & and gloves that de-materialize in every flat I have ever had the displeasure of living in)

Really? Could it not be just some trekker who wants a momento of his summit? (I admit to the hidden cameras built into my computer that I would have liked to borrow some of the more historic registers -- just for the night -- so that I could see the who's who of the peak)

Uh-oh....I think I hear sirens and pounding at the door....

PS I think that whomever is pointing (gloveless)fingers at the rangers is letting Smokey Bear off the hook big time.

I'd be curious to know if there is an actual regulation that is being violated. And can you really "outlaw" picking up items left laying around in public?

Thanks Ken for all your efforts here. I have heard of this happening but it has never made sense to me why people would remove registers.

Jeez, after finishing Lord of the Rings for the 34th time, I totally forgot about the possibilities of reading summit registers! Clearly my colleagues had not and that explains where they go. Plus, there's always the hope that someone left an avocado in one of them!

An interesting question on whether a regulation/law is being violated. Not clear. They're not sanctioned by any formal agreement, I don't think. They're not placed, maintained or owned by the government -- it's not government property in the standard sense. If the register or any of the signatures are over 50 years old, there's an argument for violating the antiquities act.

A few years back (maybe 10) a group approached NPS about replacing many of the registers with a newly designed one. It was approved but I vaguely remember it was one of those "sure, go ahead" decisions without any real thought given to it or written agreement. I believe one of the guys died while placing one and I don't think the project continued after that.

George

Hi 418 views for missing registers 382 for missing hiker?

The majority of the missing hiker discussion is going on over at High Sierra Topix -- a huge response there because he was involved a lot on that forum.

Still, strange... .

George, I can see where you are coming from.

A couple of points that I would make:

First, this has been discussed in many climbing boards over the last couple of years, and the issue of rangers removing them has been raised a number of times. There have been several climbers who have related personal episodes of rangers telling them that they had done exactly that.

Agency people have been notably absent in voicing opinions on the subject or denying that it's happening.

Of course, that is second hand.......until this last summer. I was working on a backcountry trail crew with a seasoned professional wilderness ranger attached (this was Forest Service, not Park). Sitting around the campfire, I brought the general issue of the registers going missing, without revealing my feelings. I proceeded to get a lecture from the Ranger as to how the registers were simply litter, and that there reputedly (wink, wink) was a cohort of rangers that make it their business to remove such trash from mountaintops.

I immediately voiced my thoughts on the subject, and the ranger instantly stopped talking about it, when he realized I was not sympatico.

This is the same sort of scenario that other climbers have related.

I do appreciate that there is a difference between Park and FS rangers. However, it may be that there is a difference between rangers of different generations. After all, I find it hard to imagine conservationists of a certain age involving themselves with "monkeywrenching", and yet...there is a new generation which feels that is perfectly fine.

I see nothing wrong with an employer laying out expectations. An issue has been brought up, and now, that door is closed.

I have been involved with FAR too many employee problems where the behavior described was excused as never discussed, and never prohibited.

It is probably worth noting that in what I'd mentioned, I went VERY far out of my way to bring up the subject in a non-accusatory manner, grovelling as I did so for even mentioning the subject.

Finally, if a rather casual conversation in the back of a room, talking to Agency people who likely have no idea of who I am....is what passes for a "formal" complaint, then I am purplexed by how Parks operate, at all.

And as Galileo might have said: and yet, they're gone.

Rob Pilewski put a new register UP on Mt. Morgenson... (For those who don't know, he's the Ranger at Crabtree.)(And, it wasn't a replacement of an old one... that one, with Clyde's signature disappered way before the new one went up. And then someone stole Rob's and I put up another.)

I don't think any of this - missing registers, knocked down tent platforms, kicked down Cairns, etc - isn't going to go away until we figure out how to eliminate the Extremist Gene... hey that might even lead to world peace.

Well, not to loop this into the ground but I read:



and:



So that's where I got the word formal. Also, if that was the agency response, I'm a bit pissed. I mean, nothing like first finding out the facts of a complaint -- formal or otherwise -- before coming down on us (the collective us) with a "SEVERELY worded" memo or being "oriented to appropriate conduct." I mean, to quote the esteemed Moose: WTF??

I can pretty unequivocally say that no Sequoia Kings backcountry ranger -- most with at least 20 years or more of service -- removes registers. I'll take your word on the USFS guy, but I really don't think it's a trend, especially with USFS. They've got major turnover and budgeting problems -- few people return for more than 3 years, so I don't see how a trend develops.

So I think the better approach might have been to bring this to the attention of the agencies and, hey, have them ASK their backcountry people if they've noticed a problem with registers disappearing and if anyone has any ideas of who's doing it. Imagine, starting off an actual mutually respectful conversation: Identify the problem and ask the people with the most experience about a solution rather than accuse them of being the perpetrators and giving a patronizing lecture/memo on their responsibilities... .

So part of my annoyance is with your description of agency response -- and so not quite your problem -- but I think presenting it differently might get a more considered and sensible approach to a solution by the agencies.

I think there's probably enough people with what Richard calls the Extreme Gene around who are responsible. It for sure isn't some organized backcountry ranger cult stealing registers.

g.

I've been watching the HST board as well because there are a lot more posts on the search... not really any more updates from SEKI than are posted on this board, but because of the suggestions and thoughts from other posters.

There are threads on all the related boards regarding the search-in-progress, surely people are more concerned about a missing hiker than missing registers.

Gosh, I've actually been paying more attention to the eastern US.

Just not here.

Let me know when it will be ok to post anything other than about the missing hiker. Hope he's found soon.

Hi Ken..... Wait I will send you an email! Doug

Yeah, why would anyone get the crazy idea that rangers are involved in any way in removing summit registers?

I've never been particularly happy when people do things in an official capacity, but don't put their names.



Here is what I like to read, by a former Yosemite climbing Ranger:

Ken (et al), I think I need to clarify my comment "There are threads on all the related boards regarding the search-in-progress, surely people are more concerned about a missing hiker than missing registers." was refering to why there might be more "views" on this board regarding your thread vs the Lost-Hiker thread... there are a lot of different boards posting updates on the search. As I said, I've been watching the HST Board for those reports, as I'm sure many others are. My comment was not meant to discount your thread.

I wasn't insinuating that you are unconcerned about the hiker. I guess this is the problem with "text only" - not being able to use voice inflections, facial expressions, etc.

Rosie