Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board winter sleeping pad

Hello all-

Which do you think would be warmer during a winter trip on whitney.
1) Two closed cell foam sleeping mats.
2) One standard therm-a-rest air matress.

Also anyone planning on a new years summit?
Thanks-

Matt

I would go with two closed-cell mats. Therma-Rest and other "self-inflating" mats must, by their nature, be at least partly open-cell. This means that, as you move around on the pad, you compromise some of its insulating properties by compressing air out of the open (self-inflating) cells and into the space between the inner pad and outer shell.

I owned an "Ergo-Tec" brand mat, similar to the Therma-Rest, and, while very comfortable, it was not warm enough on cold ground or snow. I've gone to a Z-rest for 3 seasons, and add an old REI pad that I have for winter.

Besides, the Z-rest PLUS the old REI pad weigh less than the Ergo-Tec or a full-length Therma-Rest.

I carry a thermarest air mattress and a closed cell air matress, the closed cell mattress insulates and the thermarest gives me the padding that I need.

Full length Z-Rest or Ridge Rest, and 3/4 Ultralite Thermarest. My Goretex parka and bibs, folded and smoothed, are sandwiched between the two pads for my shoulders through hips. Any pile clothing I am not wearing to sleep in will also go there.

My gaiters, mitts, and anything else, go under the lower part of the Z-Rest as added insulation for my legs and feet. Usually I have a down sweater along, and that goes into my sleeping bag stuff sack to be used as a pillow, together with any other clothing not being used to augment the pads. If it's really cold, though, I wear the down sweater.

My winter bag is a 25 deg. Feathered Friends, but doing all the above - especially in a tent - I'm toasty warm. A bivy bag can add about 10 deg. of protection, but I stopped using one in tents years ago.

If it's more than one night, as it often is, I will usually take a Crazy Creek chair instead of the Thermarest. Lots more comfortable for reading and cooking.

***Whitney on New Years*** I was thinking about that--Keep me posted.

When going light, I've used a thermarest ultralite (1/2") in Sierra spring, and haven't had a serious problem -- other than a decreased comfort-level. I usually throw my shell pants/jacket underneath the pad to help insulate as well as even out any uneven snow.

If I want a good night's rest, then I take a thermarest guidelite (1")

If it's really cold...or I'm on an expedition, then I throw a closed cell (3/4 ridgerest) underneath the thermarest.

I believe Cascade Designs makes a combination closed/open cell pad, and that Mountain Hardwear also makes a pseudo closed/open cell pad. Something to look into...

Whatever the case, find what works for you.

Another vote for a 3/4 Therm-a-Rest on top of a Z-Rest. The only way to go...

Another question, does anyone stick the end of their sleeping bag into their backpack during the night. If so how much warmth does that add, any problems encountered? Thanks-

Matt

matt if you toss and turn at night as I do, a backpack toes warmer isn't a very good thing.

How about 5 layers of wool socks? Toes mittens!

Notice I did not say toes middens...

I find one covered closed cell pad is good enough for me. I tried a Therma-Rest a long time ago, but found it unsatisfactory and sold it. If it leaks, you're dead. On site repair is hard to do.

Four pairs of heavy socks will do wonders for keeping your feet warm. In a extremely cold situation, maybe insulated booties will help. A bivy sack will be better than using your backpack over your sleeping bag. I never tried that, but it doesn't sound very good to do. But I guess anything helps.

A New Years summit sounds great, but sub zero is too much for me!

Down booties are quite nice in the sleeping bag. And no need to put on your boots to go take a pee in the middle of the night (just remember to sweep off the snow before you get back in your bag).

I can often get away with just a single Ridgerest pad, but every once in a while I get cold. So I frequently take two pads (one RR and one thin 3/4 length ensolite). The RR + 3/4 Thermarest combination is really nice, but heavy. For honking up Whitney via the snow covered trail it wouldn't matter as much, but for steeper travel the extra weight could be a drag.

There's also a beefier version of the Ridgerest that might be fine in the winter on its own.

I have a question -- what's up with those square Z-Rest pads? They look pretty thin and they fold up into a shape that seems weird to strap to your pack. What are the advantages of that pad?

A Classic Thermarest has an R value of 5.8 (weighs 2lbs 11 oz full length or 1 lb 12 oz 3/4 length) while two Ridge Rest 25's have a combined R value of 5.2 (together weigh 2 lb 6 oz or you could go with 2 standard Ridge Rets with same R value and weighing 1 lb 12 oz). For the extra 11 - 12% insulation, not to mention the additional comfort, I carry the extra 5 (or 15 vs. the standard) oz's of my Thermarest. If you want to go lighter, use the 3/4 and just stuff some clothes under your heels.

Closed cell std. 20x72" Ridge Rest ($23) is 5/8" thick and weighs 14 oz. Open cell 20x72" UltraLite Therm-a-Rest ($75) is 1" thick and weighs 29 oz. They both have an R-value of 2.6.

Seems to me you were right in the first place. Closed cell foam is warmer than a Therm-a-Rest for a given thickness, weight or cost.

Hello all-

Thanks for all the great advice, I think I will do the double foam mats. Therm-a-rests are expensive and your S.O.L. if you get a hole. Also the foam is lighter.

At night I plan on wearing the inner boots from my plastic boots. That way the heat from my feet will help dry them, and they will keep my feet warm (although I don't really have a problem with cold feet).

Bob and others: I'm planning to head up the MR on Dec. 31. I will set up camp at either UBSL or Iceberg and plan on staying for about 4 or 5 days. During that time I would like ot atttemp the following routes:
Whitney: MR, North Face
Russell: South Face, East Ridge

Any comments on these routes in winter? What is shorter/easier for Russell E ridge; camping at UBSL and taking the standard route from there OR camping at Iceberg and hiking to the russell-whitney col heading north and then traversing back east below russell to the chute that gains the russell-carillon col? Thanks-

Matt

Interesting thread ..... and as usual much focuses on weight. Weight has never been one of my considerations (within reason, certainly) but comfort and survival is. How did I get here? Many years ago one black, freezing cold night I literally almost froze to death at Consultation Lake. I vowed then that if I survived that night that I wasn't ever going to freeze to death. That was 46 years ago and I was so poor that my borrowed sleeping bag had holes in it. When I last summited the Mountain, July 5, 2003, I not only had my foam pad and z-rest but my Dark Star Sleeping bag (-40 degrees), and it inside of a top quality bivy sack and all of them inside my Tadpole tent. The temp only got down to the low 40s but I remained perfectly comfy, utopia actually, by practically laying on top of everything ...and my P bottle is also kept inside. Yep, I always wear my down booties too! Do you think I'm paranoid or did that one night at Consultation Lake put the fear of a life-time into me? ...... the difference in weights of the pads mentioned here won't make or break you, be comfortable, but don't jeopardize your safety by trying to travel too lightly; if necessary take another pad. I kayak too so I'm especially sensitive to getting cold and wet in winter. When it's really cold I take my NF Mountain 24 tent and about 4 layers of clothing, heavy but safe.

Rojo

> Do you think I'm paranoid or did that one night
> at Consultation Lake put the fear of a life-
> time into me?

It kind of sounds like it.

> the difference in weights of the pads mentioned
> here won't make or break you...

Not by themselves alone. But the additive weight of numerous such choices can make or break it for you. Sometimes an exception is warranted, but you have to keep your guard up. Watch the ounces and the pounds take care of themselves.

> ...be comfortable, but don't jeopardize your
> safety by trying to travel too lightly

Of course. But there's a huge amount of latitude between carrying a -40 degree bag, down booties, bivy sack and tent for +40 degree weather and sleeping out in a T-shirt and shorts. For some trips you have to accept a certain amount of discomfort in order to be able to move fast enough. Sometimes speed equals safety in the mountains.

Have always toted a 3/4 thermarest and a pad. Pad comes in handy lounging around the camp area. In my accessory pouch, I always carry a small tube of super glue, and wrapped around my msr bottle--many layers of duct tape. This way can easily fix any holes in the thermarest. Learned this the hard way--now essential to always have these two fixers in my pack. Superglue also works wonders on leather boots. Will hold frays back together on the trail until you get home. Duct tape good for blister areas too.

After rereading my post I can see why a couple of you may seem somewhat appalled; I did leave out a couple of critical things that have a distinct bearing. First, my body does not handle cold at all! I have lived in Phoenix for over 40 years and knock off 10 or 15 miles comfortably in 110+ temps but today when I got up it was 58 and I was cold enough that I had to put on a fleece jacket. As far as 'sometimes we have to move fast in the mountains', moving fast is one Alpine concept but not really much concern to me on a 14teener because if I have to really move fast I can always discard nonessential items (or snuggle in), but I can never add anything that I didn't have in the first place. Incidently, an 80 pound pack was about what some of the old timers carried (i.e., Orland Bartholomew, etc.) And yes, I have also read about every book of Colin Fletcher's other than the Winds of Mara. I don't usually carry much more than 65# but even then it is not because of my sleeping bags (I have several, including a very lightweight summer one) it is mostly because of batteries required for some of my photographic equipment. So here, I think, was the point of my original post ... everybody has different comfort zones and what is comfortable for one, be it 2 or 3 z-pads, may be not be exactly right for another. As far as the
-40 Dark Star, it sure came in handy last time I camped in Montana and it is one of my favorite purchases. But yes, I do respect Mt Whitney and will always be prepared for some of her extreme weather changes. I identified very quickly with one of Bob's previous posts where he talked about postholing, punching thru, and when evacuated noted two black holes where his feet had gone thru and he could hear running water someplace below the surface. I too have postholed up Whitney in armpit snow and that happened to be in late June! I don't recall any switchbacks back then because we went up the col. That particular night when I almost froze I was alone and had summited as the sun was setting, doubled timed it back to ridge crest and glissaded down to Consultation. It was dark, I was wet and I was freezing. I have NEVER been so glad to see the sun come up in my life!

Rojo

one other point, DHMeio, you're right about the bivy sack and tent. I usually leave the bivy sack zipped onto that particular bag to keep it dry when kayaking. I just plain forgot to take it off before starting out for Trail Camp; no biggy one way or the other. An additional 16 or so oz isn't going to kill me, I've always traveled heavy. However, I do remember one time, even after carefully resealing my tent prior to the trip, that during the night some of the seams sprung major leaks. When I woke up my bag was absolutely soaked. It continued raining for 3 days so I had to sleep in a soggy mess, fortunately summer. After the trip I purchased the bivy just for double protection. (We were in the middle of noplace on the Upper Missouri River about 3 days west of Ft Benton, for those of you familiar with the area).

Rojo