Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Snake bite

This afternoon (March 3) I took a hike on the hilly trails of Elfin Forest in San Diego County to test-drive a new pack and test my uphill-downhill muscles a bit before heading north. I'd returned to the parking lot -- everything checked out OK with a 30-pound load -- and was taking off my boots when I thought I heard a faint voice:

"Help me."

Sitting on my car's driver's seat with my feet on the ground, I looked around and didn't see anyone. Then I heard the voice again:

"Can somebody help me?"

I stood up and saw a young man sitting on a curb outside the closed visitor center at the trailhead. He was shirtless and sitting next to a daypack. He looked woozy. As I approached, I asked him, "What's the matter, man?"

"Can you help me," he said. "I got bit by a snake."

Fortunately, he'd already called 911 on his cell phone, and he had the operator on the phone. He handed me the phone and I talked to her, basically confirming what he'd told her about the location. While we were talking, I heard a siren on the nearby country road and paramedics soon arrived on the scene. Almost simultaneously, a ranger from the local park district trotted up.

The EMT asked the victim where he was bitten, and the young man uncovered his left hand, which had been wrapped in his tee-shirt. The hand was so swollen, it looked like he had a puffy ankle at the end of his wrist. He told the EMT it had happened about 20 minutes before. At that point, with more emergency vehicles pulling into the parking lot, I figured the best thing I could do was get out of the way ... so I wished the young man good luck and drove home.

When I left the house, I'd been looking ahead and thinking that most of my problems in the wilderness for the next three months or so would involve things like crampons, and practicing self-arrest, and avoiding avalanche chutes. When I returned, I was thinking, "I'm surprised rattlers would be active. OK, the days have been in the 60's, but the nights are down in the 40s and 30s this far inland ...."

I was wrong, and if circumstances had been different, I could have been dead wrong. I don't know what happened to the young bite-victim, but considering the amount of help that arrived in short order, I hope and assume he was successfully treated. I've seen my share of rattlesnakes in several decades of wandering around the outdoors, but I hope to never see another rattlesnake victim.

I know this has been a bit off-Sierra topic, but I also know there are a lot of people reading this board who live in Southern California and who, like me, may have mistakenly assumed that late winter isn't snake season.

Take care.

Phil

Excellent advice Phil. If you're in poisonous snake territory, never assume they're not active. Ever. I've seen rattlers as high as 10K feet in Colorado, and in frigid conditions in Joshua Tree and Death Valley. When in the wilderness, it's just wise to always have a clear line of sight before putting your hands or feet anywhere, regardless of season.

This is going to be a very informative thread. My hiking buddies and I have sought the answer to the question of what to do when bitten say two days from a trailhead. No phone service of course and no Sat phone either.
What do you do after having been bitten more than likely below the knee while hiking?
Sit it out?
Cut it open John Wayne style and suck the poison out?
What?
We haven't really gotten a good answer on this.
Anyone?

Basic limited info:

California Fish and Game re: snakes

Thanks for the post.

This article points out the problem I alluded to as it assumes you can get medical care in a short time, like in less than an hour.

Anything out there on what to do if help is two/four days away?

Mike, obviously you first blow the snake away with that sidearm you're packing on the trail - right?

Seriously though, it's a sticky thing in the wilderness - especially deep in backcountry where evacuation options are limited. The best advice I've found is, if the victim is in a group, to send someone hiking hard to the trailhead or waypoint to summon help. If you're on your own, you're limited to trying to get out on your own - or at least getting to a traffic area where help can be obtained. This scenario falls into the "sucks to be you" category.

Expert opinions vary on the immediate treatment of the bite, but they pretty much all agree that further cutting and suction is actually anti-productive, except in very specific cases. Here's a pretty decent article from Utah on the subject.

On a personal note, I was bitten by a timber rattler many years ago - in my front yard getting the mail. I was in a hospital within 30 minutes and released the next day. Even though there was little venom injected, I can't imagine how I would have hiked miles out of the wilderness under any circumstances. But sometimes there are just no other options except to lay down and die. And blow that emergency whistle regularly.

Lying down and waiting it out seems to be the only option left after all the things you can't do are pared away but with all the modern medical miracles we have there has to be something better than that.

Anything anybody knows?

Do not not cut the bite marks! Why? Because infection can cause more damage than the venom, possibly resulting in future amputation of the limb.
Do not try to suck out the venom. Why? Because the average human mouth is loaded with bacteria that can infect the wound site, and you might get the venon in through your own gums...
Tighten a belt or something similar above the bite, loosening every few minutes to allow some blood circulation. Keep the wound site below the person's heart.

Carry the person, if possible (easier said than done). If you are close to a trailhead, walk the person out, without them wearing a pack, ssllooowwwwly, and get them to the nearest ER. If you are way out in the backcountry, send someone out for help, post-haste, and keep the victim calm. This might be the time to use that little Spot Messenger or ACR device...

Above all, be aware of your surroundings, and where you put your hands and feet. The little "buzz-tails" really want to avoid you, if you give them time to get out of your way. If you are in know snake country (like the Druid boulders trail, where we saw two rattlers within 20 feet of each other early last Fall) walk a little more heavily than usual, so the snakies can detect your approach and get out of the way. Rattle snakes don't crawl as fast as some other species, but strike extremely fast.

Mike, the answer is very straightforward and simple: The ONLY thing that has any positive effect, is the administration of anti-venom. So, upon getting a bite, the only factor within control of the victim's party, is getting them to a hospital, other than removing constrictive clothing, rings, etc.

It may mean leaving them, while hiking for help. I'd do so near water.

Death by snakebite is extraordinarily rare in the US. None in 1990, one in 1991, one in 1992

By the way, so are bites, at all. Most are males in their 20's, most are on the hands, most involve alcohol. Don't play catch with drunk snakes, guys.

Here is a response I made on another board, on this topic, a couple of years back:
=====================

*In the United States*, our snakes are relatively benign. The risk of bites is small, particularly if alcohol is not involved.

There is NO first aid in the field that is of any help, other than removing constricting things such as rings.
The ONLY definite treatment is antivenom. The only thing to do is to get the victim to medical care. Walking out is a GOOD idea.

Some quotes:
(Kurecki, Barnard A. and H. James Brownlee._Venomous snakebites in the
United States_, The Journal of Family Practice,)

"Remember, based on the current literature, the single most effective
course of action following a pit viper bite is rapid transport to an
emergency department because the intravenous administration of antivenin
remains the definitive and only therapy of proven value. The best first
aid is a set of car keys."
-----------

Anti-venom is very dangerous...many severe reactions. Must be administered in a hospital. Cost is about $1000/vial, often 20 vials are used.
---------------
<A Wilderness Protocol


The following treatment protocol is provided by Jeff Isaac and Peter Goth
in The Outward Bound Wilderness First Aid Handbook, Lyons and Burford.

This same protocol is taught to Wilderness First Responders and
Wilderness Emergency Medical Technicians certified by the National
Association for Search and Rescue:

"Transport the patient as quickly as possible to antivenin (antidote).
Although local discomfort may be severe, systemic signs and symptoms may
be delayed for two to six hours following the bite. Walking your patient
out is reasonably safe unless severe signs and symptoms occur. It is also
significantly faster than trying a carry. Splint the affected part if
possible.

Expect swelling. Remove constricting items such as rings, bracelets, and
clothing from the bitten extremity.

Do not delay. Immediately following the bite of a snake thought to be
poisonous, evacuation should be started. It can always be slowed down or
cancelled if it becomes obvious that envenomation did not occur, or the
snake is not poisonous.

Most medical experts agree that traditional field treatments such as
tourniquets, pressure dressing, ice packs, and "cut and suck" snakebite
kits are generally ineffective and are possibly dangerous. Poisonous
snakebite is one of those conditions that you cannot treat in the field.
Don't waste valuable time trying."


Boy, this is an awfully simple protocol! Doesn't seem to leave much for
the first aider with an anxious desire to do something to occupy
himself with. Well, at least they suggest you could make a nice splint. >

By the way I was only kidding about the John Wayne thing. Cutting and sucking has been dispelled for decades and I'm glad I wasn't heavily invested in the Cutter Snake Bite Kit Company.

So it would seem, if a couple of days from a trail head, and no radio communication is at hand, the best thing to do is lie down and wait for things to get better or worse on their own while your hiking buddy jogs for help. Removing all constricting articles and clothing is probably the most important first aid that can be given. Having plenty of water at hand should be a must also. It could be a rough couple of days if there is a strong reaction to whatever venom got in.

Fortunately the snakes in the Sierra are very reluctant to strike. I've had my feet come sown within inches of them a few times and they've just rattled and looked at me. (what I did will remain a mystery).

So if you're 20-30 years old stay sober while you play with rattle snakes.

When I moved to the Eastern Sierra a few years ago, I was told that when the lizards come out, the snakes aren't far behind.

The lizards are out here. Noticed one yesterday on the summit of Scattered Bones (about 6K'), with a few patches of snow nearby and a cold wind blowing, and many at lower elevations. I haven't seen any snakes yet, but am being more careful of where I place my hands when bouldering.

Fortunately the snakes in the Sierra are very reluctant to strike. I've had my feet come sown within inches of them a few times and they've just rattled and looked at me. (what I did will remain a mystery).

Sorry, but I totally disagree with this statement. Have seen lots of rattlesnakes of different flavors in the Sierra and other ranges in the Eastern Sierra. They are anything but docile. I think you were lucky.

Could be that the west side guys are more docile. I've had probably well over a dozen "encounters" and haven't had one of the snakes be what I would call aggressive. Off the top of my head there are two incidents were the snake just continued to sun without even coiling up even though it was within a couple of feet of the trail. Several just slowly walked away, and some did go under either a rock overhang or a bush and coil up. About half of the time there was no rattling.

I can't imagine what it would feel like to be bouldering when you'd pull up and be face to face with one.

A side note on rattlesnakes...while hiking in the Santa Monica Mts. on Mother's Day, a few years ago, it seemed as if the entire rattlesnake population of the area awoke at the same time and myself and the entire family were literally surrounded by snakes and their rattles. (a very good warning) We saw, perhaps 6-8 snakes all at one time. (honest) and even video taped one as it crossed the trail within feet of us. When we got back to the trailhead and met a ranger, she confirmed that it happens quite often whereby they all seem to "awake" at the same time. We still view the video and are always amazed that we were so close without any concern because we gave them plenty of room. Remember folks, nature always bats last!

Yes. I've never seen it, but heard about it. During winter they curl up in a BIG BALL OF SNAKES -- boy, there's a Gary Larson cartoon. Then when it starts getting warmer, they all exit at once. I think they're a little woozy after a long winter and so even less likely to strike.

g.

I was guiding a 5 day wilderness trip on the Eel River. On the third day we scouted a rapid. While walking through the rocks and willows, the guide in front of me said, "Ow; that one hurt!" thinking he had recived a willow whipping. I was about 3 feet behind him and never saw the snake. At the take-out, after all gear was loaded, we got into the van for the ride out. I noticed his leg and said that if I didn't know better I would swear that it was a snake bite. All 6 of us in the van were EMT or paramedic guides including the bite victim. It had been 2 days since he was bitten, and it had taken that long for him to notice the bite at all! We had not treated the leg at all, and we were extremely surprised. We wondered how he could have gotten bitten without knowing it. A day after we got home, his leg swelled and he went to the ER. He found out in the ER that the large snake had bit him, but not injected any venom. (infection/dry hit) He was out of service for several weeks treating the infection.

The place was loaded with snakes. We saw so many that we always checked before getting out of a boat and cleared the snakes from the beach by makeing noise and chasing them before clients were even allowed off the rafts. We were extremely careful and observant of snakes, but a guide still was bitten.

Back then, the only way to get emergency help would be to send someone downriver to the takeout, and have them find a way to town. Even now, with no cell-phone reception, it is nearly impossible to get immediate emergency response. The victim spent several days guiding before realizing that he been a bitten at all. That was definitely a strange case!

Dry bites are not unusual especially by the older and wiser snakes who know that just biting is as effective as biting and injecting venom. We are not in their food chain.

The fact that this gentleman was bitten on the hand certainly raises some questions. Elfin Forest isn't full of technical climbing terrain. I doubt if the guy climbed up a ledge and found a snake.

I've always heard the majority of snake bites happen when people are being stupid and messing with the snake. I could be wrong but I would love to hear the full story.

One of those docile snakies. This guy decided to take his leisurely time crossing the switchbacks out of Hetch Hetchy.

I used the telephoto setting just in case..


B

Great info everyone. And great photo Bee! Time to start watching out in the local hills. Poison oak too. Nothing like a big ol' happy, wet dog covered in poison oak oil bounding down the trail and running into you from all sides.

This bad boy rattled at me one April. He was around 5K' in the southern Sierra. I think it was around 5' long, and maybe 3-4" in diameter. The coloration is well-suited for the terrain.

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