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SF Chronicle had an article this morning and mentioned a new law about carrying guns in National Parks that took effect on February 22. Does anyone know how this will effect backpackers in Yosemite, Kings, and Sequoia National Parks? Whoops, and Death Valley too? Will it have an effect on the black bear population?
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Will it have an effect on the black bear population? No, the right to arm bears is guaranteed by the Second Amendment.
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the same people who carried guns before while it was illegal will now carry them in the open. No real change.
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The link I posted here at the botttom may have not copied correctly. The law took into effect Feb 22, 2010. It only allows you to now legally carry the fire arm, out of view. The law does not allow you to fire or discharge the weapon, and you are not allowed to brandish the weapon in view of others. "Those who carried the weapons illegally out of view, are now allowed to carry them leagally OUT OF VIEW" http://usgovinfo.about.com/b/2010/02/19/new-gun-rules-in-wildlife-refuges.htm
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What law would be in effect if you fired or discharged the weapon? This could become kind of scary, hearing gun shots in the back country! I remember 30+ years ago when my brother and I climbed Mt Conness from Saddlebag Lake off Tioga Pass Road. We were returning to the car and started hearing gun shots and then we realized it was opening day of hunting season! We did not have bright (neon) vests on and/or flack jackets and felt extremely vulnerable....
Last edited by icystair; 02/23/10 05:22 PM.
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Icystair, I don't believe you are correct. "The law does not allow visitors to fire or discharge the firearms in any way, brandish the weapon in the view of others, or any other use of the firearm," stated the FWS. "Brandishing" a weapon is NOT the same as openly carrying it. Brandishing is waving it about in a threatening manner. In fact the new law states just the opposite of what you said. You have to comply with all federal and state laws which allow only select persons to carry a concealed weapon. The rest of us must carry it openly. I think Fishmonger got it spot on.
Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest. -- Mark Twain
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Most parks are still trying to figure this one out. However, it's important to remember that all this law does is make state gun laws apply to national parks and wildlife refuges. In California, gun laws only allow loaded weapons where hunting is allowed (which is not National Parks) or where you have a Concealed Carry Permit (no longer as common for most people). Because another Federal law supersedes this regulation, you can't have them in most all federal buildings (for instance, a visitor center or NPS offices). People who can legally possess firearms under federal and state law can now possess those firearms in the national parks in that state. The new law (Sec. 512 of P.L. 111-24) was passed by Congress and signed last May by the President.
Prior to February 22, firearms have generally been prohibited in national parks – except in some Alaska parks and those parks that allow hunting.
State and local firearms laws vary. Visitors who would like to bring a firearm with them to a national park need to understand and comply with the applicable laws. More than 30 national parks are located in more than one state, so visitors need to know where they are in those parks and which state’s law applies. California regs on guns: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf Loaded Firearms in a Public Place
It is unlawful to carry a loaded firearm on one’s person or in a vehicle while in any public place, on
any public street, or in any place where it is unlawful to discharge a firearm.(Penal Code §
12031(a)(1).) I may not be totally right on this, but it would appear that you wouldn't be able to have one in a California National Park without a CCW permit. George
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It's not going to change a thing for the people who carry illegally anyway. It only extends the laws that are already in effect in the state to National Parks. If anything it will follow suit (as with other areas of the country) and make them a safer place. Counties with high levels of concealed carry have lower levels of violent crime. Counties with high levels of open carry have much lower levels. It's just the way it works. People who carry concealed aren't going to be yahoos out shooting everything that moves. You probably interact with them every day already and don't know it.
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First off, 2007 laws do not apply to 2009 regulations effective 01-01-2010.
I possess a CCW permit. Knowing when and where to carry it is the key. I never carry a weapon into any building. I never carry a loaded weapon concealed or not. The gun is in the trunk, the bullets are separate.
When I camp, the weapon is at my side with two clips of ammo on the belt. I am discreet about it. I usually wear a coat or a large shirt to conceal the weapon from view. Showing off is a fool's idea of glory.
If approached by law enforcement, I advise them I have a weapon.
I may or may not carry a weapon on a hike into the wilderness. I have never carried a weapon on the MWT.
Journey well...
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Counties with high levels of concealed carry have lower levels of violent crime. Counties with high levels of open carry have much lower levels. It's just the way it works. Actually, it's not the way it works. I'll start by saying that I am not anti-gun. I am interested in what's actually true but I am not trying to prove anything. Here is a pretty decent Wikipedia article complete with references. Quoting from the article: Economist John Lott has argued that right-to-carry laws create a perception that more potential crime victims might be carrying firearms, and thus serve as a deterrent against crime.[111] Lott's study has been criticized for not adequately controlling for other factors, including other state laws also enacted, such as Florida's laws requiring background checks and waiting period for handgun buyers.[112] When Lott's data was re-analyzed by some researchers, the only statistically significant effect of concealed-carry laws found was an increase in assaults,[112] with similar findings by Jens Ludwig.[113] Since concealed-carry permits are only given to adults, Philip J. Cook suggests that analysis should focus on the relationship with adult and not juvenile gun incident rates.[51] He finds a small, positive effect of concealed-carry laws on adult homicide rates, but states the effect is not statistically significant.[51] The National Academy of Science has found no evidence that shows right-to-carry laws have an impact, either way, on rates of violent crime.[7] NAS suggests that new analytical approaches and datasets at the county or local level are needed to evaluate adequately the impact of right-to-carry laws.[114] The bottom line is that "the National Academy of Science has found no evidence that shows right-to-carry laws have an impact, either way, on rates of violent crime."
Last edited by AlanK; 02/23/10 08:00 PM.
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Contrary to what you read in the opinion pages of newspapers, or as portrayed by cartoonists, the new law will not result in hunting in the national parks, or in a bunch of yahoos shooting up campsites. As George said, in California the only real impact is that holders of a CCW will now also be able to carry concealed in the park. Concealed means just that - concealed. If you were to walk by me on the street you would never know that I am carrying, just as you would never know in the park. Everyone I know who has a CCW takes it very seriously and is very responsible. When I am carrying I am even more cautious because I don't want to do anything stupid to jeopardize my future carry rights. This means backing down from idiots instead of mouthing off, avoiding confrontations, etc. And you can guarantee that I will not be carrying in buildings that are posted in the park (the posting is required at the entrance).
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George,
Unfortunately ones campsite is considered ones temporary home and CA law allows one to carry a loaded weapon in their home. So it seems one could drive to a car-camping camp site and strap on a loaded side arm and use it when he feels his life is threatened by a passing bear.
Without a carry concealed permit you can't get a gun into the back country of an national park so I'd expect very few armed camp sites there.
I also wonder if there will be an annual "Gun Toters Jamboree" in each of the various parks.
Last edited by Mike Condron; 02/26/10 02:01 AM.
Mike
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Unfortunately ones campsite is considered ones temporary home and CA law allows one to carry a loaded weapon in their home. So it seems one could drive to a car-camping camp site and strap on a loaded side arm and use it when he feels his life is threatened by a passing bear. Mike: Yes, I forgot about that. Like I said, this is still being figured out, so it's possible you can have a gun in your tent, though I suspect not the campsite -- there's precedent for the tent being a home (for instance subject to a search warrant), but not the campsite. But then you'd have to unload it to carry on the trail. Seems like kind of a fine-line legal interpretation beloved of lawyers... . I'm totally winging it here and have no specific knowledge. I assume we'll be briefed when I go back to work. But from a much more practical standpoint, in 40+ years of hiking in the Sierra, I don't know of a single instance where a gun would have somehow saved a camper from harm. Also, since I've been officially carrying a weapon for over 30 years, I can't think of a more useless piece of junk to carry backpacking. Like Captain Bluntschli (Arms and the Man -- GB Shaw) I would much rather carry chocolates, given the chance... . g.
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...Everyone I know who has a CCW takes it very seriously and is very responsible. When I am carrying I am even more cautious because I don't want to do anything stupid to jeopardize my future carry rights. This means backing down from idiots instead of mouthing off, avoiding confrontations, etc. And you can guarantee that I will not be carrying in buildings that are posted in the park (the posting is required at the entrance). Thank you for saying that, lambertiana
Journey well...
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I wonder if anyone on this board has ever been to Montana or states with CCW laws ? How come all the states and cities with the strictest (unconstitutional) gun laws have the highest crime ?
How come the states and cities with the most open gun laws have the lowest crime rates ?
By the end of summer the US Supreme Court is going to issue a landmark ruling in McDonald vs City of Chicago that will restore constitutional rights to law abiding American citizens.
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
Last edited by Fuji Guy; 02/25/10 07:20 PM.
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I wonder if anyone on this board has ever been to Montana or states with CCW laws ? How come all the states and cities with the strictest (unconstitutional) gun laws have the highest crime ?
How come the states and cities with the most open gun laws have the lowest crime rates ? Questions, questions, questions. Why do the states with the highest rates of gun ownership have the highest firearm death rates? Reference
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"I wonder if anyone on this board has ever been to Montana or states with CCW laws ? How come all the states and cities with the strictest (unconstitutional) gun laws have the highest crime ?"
Somehow I think crime rate differences between Bozeman and Miami are influenced by many factors, not just CCW laws.
My personal concern with guns in Yosemite have to do with tent campers' fear of bears, and the chance of a bullet discharged towards a nosy bear ending up in the next tent over.
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A pdf on CA's open carry laws. This is why we need lawyers, besides needing something to kill.
http://www.google.com/search?q=open+carry+california+law&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
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George, Thanks for the link to Mr. Barnes showing his prowess with a pistol. BUT, he's one of the MOST UNSAFE shooters I have seen in quite a while !! Watch it again and notice how many times he has his finger on the trigger while not aiming at something he wants to destroy or kill. Even when he was wiping it down near his face, and also when he was putting in a new magazine near the end.................steve
When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.
Erasmus
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