Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Climbing without permit

The question of wilderness permits has many facets. In the case at hand, I'd say it's more important to recognize that, while the OP didn't (we assume) fulfill the letter of the law administratively, his actions were consistent with the intent of the permit process.

In my long history with the federal government, seeing how rules and regulations get put into place, and how they get enforced, I'd say that the "nation of laws" idea is just that--an idea. We also have a tradition going back to the founding of the nation, of challenging what we believe to be unjust rule. We wouldn't be an independent nation if we had "worked within the system" of British rule. The principle of civil disobedience has a proud history exemplified by the civil rights movement.

Some attempt at regulating the use of public lands is necessary. No attempt will be perfect. Folks like George Durkee are owed a debt of gratitude for their lifelong dedication to the protection of our wilderness. But I think it's possible to object to the "system" without showing disrespect to the individuals working for it.

Ignoring the rules is one thing. Lying about not knowing that they exist is something else entirely. I respect everyone's ability to decide whether or not they follow the rules, but please, accept the responsibility for your decisions. Respect the men and women whose JOB it is to enforce the rules that DO exist. They may, after all, actually AGREE with you about the permit system. While it is against the regs to travel in the Whitney Zone without a permit, if you do get caught, accept the consequences of YOUR decision. You can then DECIDE whether to pay the fine or not, and thereby deal with THOSE consequences as well. Isn't self-determination fun?

This board does serve to educate, inspire, and facilitate discussion between all levels of hikers and climbers. Millions of people read your words every day, integrating information from all angles, without necessarily ever posting. As is the case specifically with George Durkee, employees of the USFS and NPS read this, too. While some may see this as "big brother watching", I think it is an opportunity to directly communicate with all groups and hear all sides of issues.

Respect others for their decisions, and take responsibility for your actions. That's all I would ask.

The US permit system for National Parks and Wildernesses was new to me (as European). I know of only one peak in Europe, where a permit is required: the Teide on Tenerife.

My past holidays I often spent in Scandinavia where you can hike through great landscapes without meeting any other people. But even there tourism grows and publicly known places like the Besseggen get overrun. This was the first place where I wished there was some kind of restriction system. The trail was overcrowded and in parts destroyed, so that erosion took over and it wasn't an enjoyable trip any more.

In our days there seems to be no other possibility to preserve the beauty of great landscapes (or mountains) for other people or our descendants than to restrict access to a good-natured degree.

Thorsten

My guess is that much of the trash and piles of poop come from jerks that don't think they should be required to get a permit. They feel that they are entitled to do what ever they wish with no concern for how it impacts others (that probably poop piles with a tp sheet or two are so easily left). My question is; why do they feel entitled? Because they are a citizen? Because they are human? Because they pay taxes? Because they think no one can own nature? Well, the US government owns a lot of places that a citizen shouldn't be, the taxes you pay your entire life won't build an maintain a trail.

I have a much bigger problem with impacts caused by the people with selfish attitudes than I have with someone not getting a permit. When they started the Adventure Pass in the San Gabriel Mts.: trash on the trails reduces, there were noticeably less trouble maker types (people just hanging around) and generally the entire zone improved.

And a final note for the anarchist in the "you can't make me get a permit" people: if they really weren't any rules, do you think the majority would let you anywhere near a trail?

"In my long history with the federal government, seeing how rules and regulations get put into place, and how they get enforced, I'd say that the "nation of laws" idea is just that--an idea. We also have a tradition going back to the founding of the nation, of challenging what we believe to be unjust rule. We wouldn't be an independent nation if we had "worked within the system" of British rule. The principle of civil disobedience has a proud history exemplified by the civil rights movement."
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I beg to differ in bringing in the issue of civil disobedience into the discussion. NO ONE has taken that as their stand.

This would involve calling the permit office and announcing that one was not going to get a permit, and they could be found at a particular place and time, within the Zone, for the express purpose of getting cited. The intent would be to get the citation for the purpose of creating publicity over the unfair situation.

That is not at all what various posters have stated as their intent, rather simply ignoring regulations they find inconvenient, which is not "noble" in any way.

You know what I find funny is that someone from within the state "doesn't have time to get a permit" but an out of state person like myself has the time well in advance to go through the system and jump through all the hoops to get my permit.
You would think a person has some pride in their state (I know I do)and would plan in advance what mountains they plan on climbing, when and what those regulations are and act accordingly. After all going up a 14491 foot mountain without proper planning and time just seems dumb to me.

I'm not a big rules and regulations fan myself but when it comes to permits for state recreation or wildlife areas that require fees and planning to get a permit FOR GOOD REASON there IMHO should be just as much respect for the process as for the mountain itself.

Every year there is one of these "I'm hiking without a permit" posts. They come from someone who has never posted before and never posts again. They always stir up the usual "It's public land" vs. "Follow the rules" debate.

Isn't GoForGold a troll?

... I don't think the guy should hike without a permit, but I don't think it's immoral and I will let the rangers handle it as they see fit.

...Edit by Steve C -- inflammatory remarks removed

Thorsten,

I grew up in Germany and hiked much of the European mountains in the 1980s, and looking back at those days, I know exactly how you feel. It was a shame how trashed some of the most beautiful places were. You don't realize how bad it is until you visit the Sierras or another National Park that is well managed.

Just a few days ago I read up on Pico de Orizaba in Mexico, which at first looked like something I would want to do. Learning about how trashed the base camp is, and that there's literally no official regulation of anything on that mountain just turned me off. It reminded me too much of places I've seen in France and wasn't too interested in experiencing again.

Back in May 2006 I was walking down from camping at UBSL and met 3 rangers coming up, they were to get the last of two backpacks from the 4 hikers caught in a avalance below iceberg lake the month before, they wanted to see my permit and ask if I picked up all my trash and I said yes but I left a nice fleece jacket and readers digest mag. at my spot (i was going to buy new), under a rock for the weekenders coming up that might want it(this was thursday) anyway they told me that was littering, had to show my ID and two weeks later i got a ticket for $175.00 for littering which I paid, it was a stupid mistake I just was not thinking, what if everybody did that we would have stuff all over the place..

For the last 4 years for a permit I have never done the lottery I just go to the center and get a cancellation (free) when I come through, always get one...mark

NOT having a permit does not mean you are going to leave trash on the mountain. conversely, having a permit doesnt gaurantee that people wont leave trash.
95% of people in the whitney area have permits and there is ALOT of trash up there.
if you truly cared about over usage of the area then reduce the permits by say...50%.

With a reduction of visitor numbers you can achieve a reduction of trash and erosion on the trail and its surroundings which makes it a better experience for everybody.

With a permit system you can keep away planless and unexperienced people who just want to give it a try. Surely everybody can get a permit if he wants to. There is no test involved. But it presents a small barrier.

How much reduction is the right one, that's the big question.

Thorsten

This has been my experience also, and I come out from the other side of the country.

CaT

For people who can afford the luxury of showing up a day early to get a permit, maybe the current systems works. But for those of us who find this difficult, we're effectively shut out of the Whitney Zone for the summer. Including the NF day permits in the Whitney MT quota, and limiting overnights to 15/day made an already difficult situation much worse.

I'm pretty sympathetic to anyone who gives up in frustration and just takes their chances. Chances are pretty good that the actual number of people in the NF is less than what the permit system is designed to limit. Follow LNT and the only insult is to the bureaucracy, and maybe your wallet if you get caught.

Sure, the Sierra is a big place--there's no lack of worthy objectives elsewhere. But there are some pretty cool things to do in the NF, and the permit system just makes it really hard.

I'm a little baffled by the harsh reactions to the initial post, and except for Laura's reply to this, it seems to have gone by without any reaction.

On one hand, we've got a guy whose only real, bottom-line issue is that he lacks a piece of paper, and he doesn't even defend his lack of that paper, just that he (thinks he) won't be able to get it due to timing. He's practically been convicted of not using a wag bag, or leaving it for others to take care of, or littering, destroying the environment, etc., yet he's not even hiking at a time where a permit would be a problem to get.

On the other hand, we've got a refusal to obey rules/laws, and rather than standing up for principles, lying about it to get out of any penalties. And few seem bothered by that.

One of several things that bothers me is the "my land" comment. Your land? Isn't it "our land"? Do highways, for example, belong to each individual to do as they please and set their own rules? Just suppose we all did just that...everything is according to our personal needs and desires, no one else matters. Can I take my dirt bike up your mountain bike trail that's actually a hiking trail? What about my Hummer, I really want to tear up some dirt, and it's a lot of fun, and it's my land. I don't have the time to waste walking, and driving is a lot more fun, especially off-road four-wheelin' through creeks and over meadows, when you go fast. Those stupid 'greenies' don't know what a good time is.

So I just don't get it; mountain biking, like many other things, is fun, but it's not a benign activity. It erodes trails, presents a hazard to people and wildlife, and for many is basically a race. Races of all sorts are fun, but do you race on public trails designated for hiking or wilderness? No, you race in places designed or allocated for racing, be it drag racing, road racing, bike racing or whatever. That way others are free to enjoy their chosen activities as well.

I've heard the same rationalization from jet skiers, the ones who stupidly and illegally go crashing through the waves between the surfers, who are out enjoying a natural activity in a natural and peaceful environment. They disrupt the peace, scare away the dolphins and birds we enjoy, stink up the air, and then they stupidly grin at you as if "we're" all out there enjoying the same thing and are the best of buddies.

So please rethink this; it's not "your" land, it's "our" land, and the only way it will work is if we all cooperate. The missing piece of paper deserves a ticket and an education, but the abuse of land and total disregard for rules, laws, the land, and safety of others, and being proud of it, is quite another thing.

Reduce the qutoas and increase the number of people who go without permits, it's really a catch 22. Regardless out of the number of people who get permits some of those are going to not follow rules and leave trash and take craps by the side of lakes etc. but for every one of those people I would be willing to bet there are 5 or more that practice the right methods.

Topic closed, waiting for a trip report. Thanks Doug