Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Proper Food Storage definition

Current map of canister requirements in the Sierra:

http://www.sierrawildbear.gov/foodstorage/map041609.pdf

There's a phrase that isnt' epxlained in detail anywhere on the web site: "Proper food storage is required everywhere"

Does this apply while on the move? Meaning, if I cross through a canister-only area with a currently not approved Ursack, but store my food in bear lockers while at camp, is that ok? Is it ok in areas that do not require the approved canisters such as west of Whitney up to Forester Pass to use an Ursack and camp away from Bear lockers?

Reason I'm asking: I'll be on the JMT with my kid this summer and currently we only have one Bearickade Expedition, which is not sufficient for the southern half of the trail. Given we'll need food for thee hikers for 8-9 days, we need to get two more Bearkade weekenders for each kid, or two Ursacks (much prefered and cheaper). My plan is to empty their Ursacks first, so that when we ge to Pinchot Pass and cainster-only country, all food will fit the Bearikade. I assume the Ursack would be ok from Muir Trail Ranch to Pinchot Pass based on the above map and my interpretation that if they don't require a particular canister, that an Ursack is "proper" enough.

Now, we are doing a yo-yo hike and things will be different once we turn around at the Portal - heading up to Trail Crest through the canister required area, we'll have two full Ursacks in a restricted area, but we won't be camping there (going over crest on day 1). Is that "proper"? Is it "tolerated?"

Also, when we enter Kings Canyon NP after Forester Pass, we will still have food in those bags, but the plan is to camp at lock boxes while in that area. Is this "proper?" Once past Pinchot we should be ok for the rest of the hike with the large Bearikade.

I'd hate to spend $550 on heavier canisters if we can wing this with two Ursacks, keep the weight down, mail them in with the food to Muir Trail Ranch and mail them back from there.

This may all be irrelevant if the Ursack does gets approved this spring. Tom, president of Ursack posted this on a PCT list a few days ago: "I am the president of Ursack. We are trying to resolve approval issues with rangers in Yosemite, SEKI and Inyo, and hope to have an answer by early June. It is possible--no promises--that our new S29 AllWhite will be approved for use there."

We are leaving for CA on June 24, so I will have to make a call on ordering Ursacks or Bearikades just around early June. If my above use of the Ursack qualifies as "proper," I could get this off my mind much sooner.

There's a phrase that isnt' epxlained in detail anywhere on the web site: "Proper food storage is required everywhere"

Does this apply while on the move?
No. The bears will not jump on you to get your food. Only cougars will do this.

Meaning, if I cross through a canister-only area with a currently not approved Ursack, but store my food in bear lockers while at camp, is that ok?
Yes

Is it ok in areas that do not require the approved canisters such as west of Whitney up to Forester Pass to use an Ursack and camp away from Bear lockers?
This is a bit more controversial. The requirement is that you use an "effective technique" to protect food, and one could reasonably argue that an Ursack is as effective as counterbalancing. Certainly, you cannot counterbalance above treeline.

Reason I'm asking: I'll be on the JMT with my kid this summer and currently we only have one Bearickade Expedition, which is not sufficient for the southern half of the trail. Given we'll need food for thee hikers for 8-9 days, we need to get two more Bearkade weekenders for each kid, or two Ursacks (much prefered and cheaper). My plan is to empty their Ursacks first, so that when we ge to Pinchot Pass and cainster-only country, all food will fit the Bearikade. I assume the Ursack would be ok from Muir Trail Ranch to Pinchot Pass based on the above map and my interpretation that if they don't require a particular canister, that an Ursack is "proper" enough.
I can't speak for other areas, of course, but when I worked on the Sierra NF, which included Muir TR, we accepted Ursacks in non-required areas. Can't say if that is still true. I'll ask the Inyo guy this weekend.


Now, we are doing a yo-yo hike and things will be different once we turn around at the Portal - heading up to Trail Crest through the canister required area, we'll have two full Ursacks in a restricted area, but we won't be camping there (going over crest on day 1). Is that "proper"? Is it "tolerated?"

The requirement only applies to camping (but remember to guard your packs while resting. many many stories of bears waiting for this, and carting packs off!

Also, when we enter Kings Canyon NP after Forester Pass, we will still have food in those bags, but the plan is to camp at lock boxes while in that area. Is this "proper?"

great - I'm all relieved now



I was going to counterbalance those Ursacks when below treeline... guess that'll be pretty safe. Did the Muir 6 times before canisters were even known and never lost my food, so I have a bit of experience with the type of tree needed. I've been up many nights but only once had to chase a bear away in a total of maybe 50 nights below tree line. The bad nights were those above treeline where you basically had to hope for the best.





that would be great. I assume that a properly used Ursack should be alright anywhere but in those areas that require the approved canisters.



yeah, we generally don't have time to leave our packs unattended - big mileage, breaks with pack on your back or sitting on it. I don't recall a stop last year where we left our packs more than 10 feet away from us, ever.

It's good to hear that the requierment only applies to camping, because that is hard to deduct from any of the online material. It may be kept ambiguous on purpose, just to increase compliance.

I'm not trying to get out of my canister use by any means - I LOVE the fact that I can sleep anywhere I want to stop, with the food safe even when there's no decent tree around. That alone is worth hiking with a canister (it makes a nice chair, too). I just don't want to double the pack weight of the kids when there's really no reason to, given the Ursack has shown its effectiveness and canisters are not required in most of the area we need to use it.

We'd fill the ursack with our crushable foods and use no liner, but even if we needed to bring the aluminum liners to be compliant, I could wrap those around my Bearkade during the day easily, keeping their weight down. I just can't carry 3 rigid canisters, which is why two more $$$ lightweight weekender Bearikades are the only alternative to keep their weights reasonable if the Ursack doesn't work out.

Peter

Hmmm. This is something I should know. I do know that in Sequoia Kings and Yosemite, the Ursack is not allowed under any circumstances unless it's in a bear box or counter balanced.

"Proper Food Storage" means, a little ambiguously, whatever the requirements are for the area you're in. So for Sequoia Kings, that means a canister between Forester, Cedar Grove & Pinchot Pass. If you're a through hiker, it means a bear box is OK. But you may not use an Ursack or hang your food. Same for Dusy Basin and some other areas on the west slope. Everywhere else, you've got to hang it or use a canister. When hanging, it's got to be counterbalanced at (this isn't exact, I don't think) 12 feet off the ground and 10 feet away from the tree.

So that means you've got to read the permit for the area you're going through. Yosemite defines hanging the same. I'm not sure about USFS areas.

Take home message: the ursack is not currently approved for stand-alone food storage anywhere on the JMT. Unfortunately, it's failed at some level with each design. Usually, a bear or other critter can only get a tiny tear into it, but the critter gets a "food reward" which defeats the idea of food storage -- which is to get them back to nuts and berries. I don't know anything about the newest design. It's a great idea and I hope it works someday. But, you don't want to be a beta tester. Bears will test anything new that comes along for a year or two. They don't touch the Garcia or Bearikade etc. anymore (usually). They know it's not worth the effort. They will almost always thrash the ursack.

Get a canister, you'll sleep better.

Further (bears are so much fun!) as annoying as canisters are, they've been incredibly effective. In the 70's in the Charlotte/Kearsarge/Forester area, for instance about 60% of the bear scat would have foil or plastic in it. When bear boxes were introduced in the mid-80s, that went down to may 20 - 30%. With canisters, it's now down to < 3%. (anecdotal, of course, but darned close). Bears are much less a problem than they used to be and are munching happily on nuts and berries again.

(You want to hear another interesting theory/factoid? I was just discussing with a couple of biologists the possibility that the crash of yellow-legged frogs in the 70s paralleled bears switching to backpacker food. When canisters came in, the frogs were gone as a food source perhaps (?!?!) forcing the bears well over to the east side, into Mammoth & etc. Only theory, but an interesting one.)

George

I agree that the canister is the ultimate solution. That is why I have a Bearikade Expedition. The problem is the size and shape of the thing. I can't fit food for 3 people and 8-9 days into my pack with any existing canister type. Meanwhile, a plyable bag like the Ursack will let me fit the food for everyone into my pack, and if not, at least it won't add 2 pounds of dead weight to the pack of my kids (which are about 7 pounds fully packed without food - 2 pounds are significant on their backs).

The way the rules are, it seems possible to get through the southern half of the JMT without any food storage device as long as you hang food or use the lockers in the mandatory sections. The Usack would add another level of protection, given there's hardly a perfect hanging tree out there.

I have no problems with proper hanging if that is the rule, having done that 7 summers in the 80s and 90s without ever losing any food. On the other hand, this seriously restricts where you can make camp and it may not be possible to stick to a proper hiking schedule just because of the elevation you may find yourself at. So if I cannot use the Ursack as described on their site (tied to a log/tree), I am going to face problems with camp choice and schedule flexibility. Argh... I guess I could sell the extra Bearikades after the summer.

As a side note: You mention to read the permit for the area you are going through for local rules, but I don't recall such information beyond the issuing park (Yosemite). There was plenty of fire/elevation info for other areas, but nothing particularly detailed about food storage that isn't available online. The term counter-balancing doesn't even show up as a valid option in some aeras.

If bear canisters work so well, why then aren't they mandatory across all of the Sierras? I would not have a problem with that - at least that would make my current decision much easier.

Peter

> If bear canisters work so well, why then aren't they mandatory across all of the Sierras? I would not have a problem with that - at least that would make my current decision much easier.

Huh? Because they are heavy and expensive. You have answered your own question in your own details.

They are mandatory where the bears are most persistent and most often get their "food rewards".

Whilst on this subject,
we are heading up M.T. next Thurs. and staying 2 nights at Trail camp.
Just wondering how people store food this time of year.
I know we don't need a bear canister yet but there is not much to hang food from.
More concerned with pesky Marmots rather than bears.
Any advice appreciated.
Nick.

not to beat this to death any more, but according to the Ursack FAQ, the "approved method" of using their hybrid bag (aluminum liner inside) is to lay it on the ground like a canister:

(http://www.ursack.com/ursack-faq.htm)

I assume the hanging requirement refers to Ursacks without the liner? It probably won't be possible for us to hang them where we will be camping some nights early in the northbound direction, so it's either Bearikade or Ursack with liner, if the above statement about appoved method is correct.

As promised, I had an extensive conversation with Brian Spitek, the Wilderness Manager for the Whitney area (north to Sawmill), and he specifically told me that Ursacks are acceptable in NON-cannister required areas, on the Inyo.

This would be an alternative to counter-balancing.

By the way, we are both in agreement that we expect that one day, we will see food properly counter-balanced, but neither of us have ever seen it done yet.

Also present was Tori Seher, the chief bear officer in Yosemite. Fascinating stories, you should never miss a chance to hear her, you'll never leave a cannister at home again. Her tale of her mistake with a piece of cake cost the lives of seven bears, leaves not a dry eye.

She describes how bears behave, walking into a camp area: the are looking up, scanning for hanging food. They will spend unlimited time attempting to get that food down, and they don't know if it is in an Ursack. They'll climb upon each other, they'll send cubs up, who are trained to pull up the rope, they'll "kamakaze" off of higher branches onto the sack (not a good idea to be sleeping under the food!)

Ken,

thanks for following up on this. So this sounds like a plain Ursack laying on the ground somewhere between Shepherd and Junction Pass south of Kings Canyon NP shoudl be acceptable. That is the critical night on our northbound hike. After that it's lockers and out of the restricted area at Pinchot Pass when the bags should be almost empty.




I used the method for 7 summers up there, and I don't think I found more than one or two trees that were ideal for the method. Only once a bear showed up to try to get it, but it was very persistent.

2 hours before dawn I spotted it half way up the trunk of the tree where our food was balanced. We made lots of noise to get it down. After that it kept circulating the campsite, cat-like quiet, only to eventually realize that I wasn't going to get back into the tent. That night with bear contact was in an area well off trail, somewhere on the ridge north of Lake T Edison, well off established trails or any camp sites people use frequently (we spent an hour looking for that tree...). Clearly, this bear we met wasn't aware of the kamikaze dive move to get the branch off the trunk


So here's my ideal Muir Yo-Yo hike, 1 adult w/2 children food resupply scenario:

Yosemite to Muir Trail Ranch:
single Bearikade Expedition for all food

Muir Trail Ranch to Whitney Portal:
Bearikade Expedition and two Uracks which are shipped in with the resupply bucket. Ursacks will be empty before crossing Pinchot Pass and should be legit on the JMT up to the pass (really? This isn't Inyo, so could different rules apply here?).

Portal to Muir Trail Ranch:
Bearikade Expedition and two Uracks. Ursacks allowed west of Whitney for overnight use up to Forester or Junction Pass. From there we'll use the bear lockers at Rae Lakes the following night. Hike beyond Pinchot Pass on the next day. At Palisade Lakes the Ursacks should be empty when we may use the Sierra High Route through Dusy Basin.

Muir Trail Ranch to Yosemite:
All food in Bearikade Expedition, mail Ursacks home from Ranch.



Ursack 8 ounces (22 ounces with liner)
Bearikade Weekender 31 ounces

Renting two Bearikade Weekenders for our long trip would be around $290, buying them $450. Two Ursacks would be $170 with two liners, $130 without liners.

Weight can be distributed amoung hikers much better with the Ursack where for example I could carry the Ursack liners wrapped around my Bearikade during the day, making the bags lighter and more plyable to fit into my pack or at least save significant weight from the packs of the kids.

Meanwhile, the Bearikade is clearly the peace of mind option to allow camp to be made at any time, anywhere. Weather forced our schedule last year, and if that happens in the restricted areas this year, we could be in non-compliance with the Ursack. I have to think this over. All information provided so far helps tremendously.

Peter

Ken, can you elaborate a bit? I am very curious.

Do you really have to put freeze dried sealed food packages into a bear canister? Can a bear smell the food anyway?

What else do you have to protect against squirrels or mice? I read something about shoes and socks.

http://sectionhiker.com/2008/04/11/bears_sense_of_smell/

"A bear’s sense of smell is so acute that they can detect animal carcases upwind and from a distance of 20 miles away. You should just assume that they can smell the food in your food bag too."

and

"A bear’s sense of smell is 7 times better than a blood hound’s or 2,100 times better than a human."

They can smell food in a intact can (tin). They will rip open a car to get to the cans of food in the trunk.

Hmmmm.... That article states:
"You should also seriously consider lining your food bag with an OPSACK 100% odor-proof plastic bag. These plastic bags are 17,000 times more odor-proof than normal ziploc bags and can significantly reduce the chance of a human bear encounter."

Has anyone seen or used those bags? If they are 17,000 times more odor-proof than zip-lock they could replace a bear cannister, right? I doubt it.

But then.... maybe they would be a good wag bag container. Somebody should give this a try.

Steve that is a brilliant idea.Wag bag container.Of course the whole idea behind a bear resistent canister is not to keep a bear from smelling the food but to provide a container that he will have a hard time getting into.
I like the idea for the wag bag cuz 3 zip locks still never got rid of the odor.

Forest Service and Park Service doesn't believe the bags work, either.

These bags are pretty pointless since when you handle food, you inevitably will touch the outside of these bags with your "food-contaminated" hands and that's enough for a bear to get the message. I use a few of these bags inside my canister to reduce the scent coming from items like salami. It may help with long distance smell reduction, but if a bear is in the area, the smell of humans alone is probably enough to trigger their interest in your camp.

I just sent a note to our Sequoia Kings bear guy asking for clarification on the Ursack. Since it doesn't work, it's hard to believe they're allowed to be used as designed, but if that's what the USFS guy said... . Still, I'm not sure it's the same in Sequoia Kings. I'll post if I get an answer.

On bears and smell: It's absolutely true that they've got a great sense of smell, but I tend to think they rely heavily on experience. If it looks like it might be food, they'll rip into it. So I don't think coming up with some odor proof bag is going to work.

Finally, as attractive as the Ursack is and whatever the regulations may be, if you leave it out and there's a bear around, there's no question it's going to get chewed on all night and/or you'll spend your time chasing bears all night.

"Never underestimate an animal you can teach to ride a bicycle."

g.

I see now that one must not underestimate the scent and inventiveness of bears.

So there are two options, either always camp near bear boxes (I found a nice list here: Bear Boxes in the Sierra) or use bear canisters to be more flexible with the selection of camping places.

Does the Eastern Sierra InterAgency Visitor Center in Lone Pine rent bear canisters?