Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board What down jacket/parka do you reccomend?

I don't get cold very easily. I recall a few years ago summiting Whitney in October. That day it was snowing on the summit and the temperature was cold enough to freeze the water in my hydration tube. Despite that I was comfortable in a polypro short sleeve shirt and a fleece pullover. In all the hikes I've done with others I usually notice that I have one or sometimes two layers less than everyone else. Well this weekend I finally got a solid dose of cold. Some friends and I climbed Scodie Peak. On the summit one measured the temperature as being in the high 20's but with the 50-60 MPH winds and snow blowing sideways at various times of the day, the temperature with the windchill was in the single digits. I had on a long polypro shirt, a fleece pullover, beanie, light gloves, and a wind/rain shell and I was still cold. I wasn't miserable but it was at times uncomfortable. This got me thinking that it was time to consider investing in a good down jacket or parka. I noticed some of my friends had theirs on for part of the day. The thing is there are so many brands and models that it is hard to know where to look. Chances are that I'll never go on an expedition in the Himalayas or Antarctica so I don't need something that will keep me warn at 40 below zero but something that will do the job for Winters in the Sierra would probably fit the bill. I welcome any reccomendations.

Rafael...

Down Jacket

Mountain Hardwear Subzero is a good choice for you and you can read some reviews at the following sites:

www.moosejaw.com
www.trailspace.com

The Mountain Hardwear Absolute Zero will be a bit too much since you don't plan on doing any high elev expeditions.

Don't have any recommendations on a parka, just so many out there. I'd say Arcteryx, Mountain Hardwear or North Face are the brands to look at. For exceptional quality and functionality, Arcteryx might be the best but its so expensive. Mountain Hardwear and North Face definitely compete and their prices are relatively lower than Arcteryx.

The MH Absolute zero is the warmest jacket you will ever put on, stuffs into a daypack thats 3/4 full and allows you to leave all layers at home. For those that stay warm while moving, one capillene while moving, The AZ when you stop.

I would consider making some smaller changes. I think most agree that headwear is critical regarding warmth, and a beanie is not going to really cut it. I don't know if you were using the hood from your waterproof shell, but if not, the beanie is problematic.

Remember that the wind chill only applies to bare skin, or essentially bare skin. A layer which blocks the wind negates it. Most beanies are not windproof (some are), your neck is not protected, and your face is not. So you may be having significant radiative and convective heat losses on your head.

Another layer of fleece or wool on your trunk, may work fine. However, down is certainly nice! Beastly expensive. The only advantage is weight, and if that is not really an issue, fleece works fine.

Also, your lower body can make a huge difference, if not in windproof clothing.

Another interesting trick is to wear a sauna suit (about 10 bucks?) against your skin. This completely eliminates evaporative heat loss, and is a portable version of a vapor-barrier layer.

A nice discussion of heat loss issues, for those wanting more info:

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/lp2/head-to-toe-guide.html

Great advice! I would add a scarf - wool or polar fleece. My wife actually recommended it to me on cold days and I include it along with a wool cap. It has made a real difference for me on really cold days to keep to heat lose down.

I would say do something light to medium weight, preferably made of a synthetic fabric such as Primaloft or Climashield. I personally alternate between a Patagonia DAS Parka (heavier) and a North Face Redpoint Optimus. Ken is right, hoods are critical in keeping your neck and head warm. In most cases the synthetic insulation layer can be worn over your shell layer so when you stop moving it goes on without requiring you to shed a layer and lose heat in the process. Down might last a bit longer and be warmer pound for pound but it is often harder to take care of and is not ideal if worn during activity. If you end up going with a down product I would look into the Patagonia Down Sweater Hoody or The North Face Prism Optimus. My peak-bagging clothing system includes a merino wool baselayer, a powerstretch fleece pullover, a hooded softshell and an insulation layer. On the bottom you might trade your regular hiking pants for a softshell type pant such as the Patagonia Guide Pant and add a baselayer. Hope this helps out!

Raffy:

I agree with Ken that adequate covering of the noggin' as a first defense. I know that even something I struggle with since I have a thick mop of hair: if I have something too warm on my head while ascending I sweat too much and then get irreversibly chilled when I stop. But something w/ windblocker fleece would be great.

The down is just another step in the layering system, so there's a lot of ways you, as a 'warm' person, could go. So I would first ask: where in particular did you feel cold? The first things to go on me are my fingertips. If the issue was more core warmth, you might even consider a down vest to wear under the wind shell.

I just recently got the Marmot Zeus jacket, which is a nice, light jacket (only 14 oz and 800 fill) for moderate conditions. But for snow camp in the evening I have the Subzero as mentioned above. It's like another sleeping bag, but as I tend to get chilled and cold, I like the warmth of it.

Good luck!
-L

Well, you seem to have gotten a lot of good advice on clothing, so I'm going to approach warmth from a different standpoint. What did you eat for breakfast, and what do you snack on while climbing, if indeed you do snack? Metabolism of food can be very important if you are in cold environments. The thermic effect of food ie the energy, put off as heat, that it takes for digestion and breakdown of food, can be the difference between feeling warm and feeling cold, even with the proper gear on. The propensity for many climbers is to eat light in the morning and get an early start, if they even eat at all. That may be OK in the summer, but can be a big mistake when you are hiking in cold conditions. Protein and carbs should be your fuels of choice in these conditions; Proteins generally take more work and time to break down and thus will provide a nice source of heat over a long period of time, while carbs, particularly simple carbs, will be burned quicker and provide more instantaneous heat. Have a breakfast with ample protein and carbs, then snack on carbs, both complex and simple, on the way up. Simple carbs are the best if you are trying to warm up quickly. At the summit, you can have another mixed meal of some protein and carbs. Keep in mind that going downhill will burn quite a bit less energy and therefore produce less body heat than going uphill, unless you are downclimbing a particularly difficult route, so your break at the summit is no time to be scrimping on food.

Mountain Hardware Sub Zero SL Hooded Jacket if you're looking for a down jacket that goes over (and not under) your shell jacket.

Rafael -

The first thing to do is to beef-up your headgear. Doesn't matter what you have on your chest if your headgear is inadequate. Get a knitted wool hat with ear flaps and lined with fleece. REI-Outlet has them for $15 or less. Also get a neck gaitor, like the ones made with Turtle Fur. A hat/gaitor combo is superior to a balaclava because your breath will cause the moisture to collect in the fleece covering your mouth/nose, and with a gaitor you can give it quarter twist and have warm, dry fleece protecting your face. For colder, windy conditions, get a wind-block fleece hat with ear flaps. Wind-block over your ears muffles sound, which takes some getting used to. The neck gaitor can also double as a hat under some conditions.

Get some warm mittens, too. Double-fleece mitts are a good start. For dayhikes, bring a couple of pairs, and get some shells for colder/windy conditions. Wind-block gloves are also useful, but overall, mitts tend to be warmer.

The jackets listed above are good, but they may be overkill for winter hikes in So-Cal. If money is no object, get one, and you're probably good to go even for Denali. But, a $35-40 down jacket from Lands-end, LL Bean, etc, in 600-650 fill works too. Since you're acclimated to warm weather, put the jacket on as soon as you summit when it's sub-freezing/windy. In other words - put it on before you're cold. About 1/4 mile off the summit you'll probably be stashing it back in your pack.

As for fleece pullover - make sure it's at least 200w fleece. And avoid wind-block pullovers/jackets - they're great, but are too warm and don't breath for aerobic activities like hiking. They also don't compress well.

Hope this helps.

Kevin

Kevin's right - those jackets are probably overkill for most day hiking situations in the southern tip of the Sierra.

I do really like having a down jacket in the winter when day hiking, but I more often bring and use my North Face Flash Down Jacket (just 12 ounces and compresses easily) than the heavier Mountain Hardware Down Jacket. There are lots of nice lightweight down jackets out there. Most of my winter hiking is done in the mountains of Southern California south of the Sierra, which would be similar to the very southern part of the Sierra. I tend to stay out of most parts of the Sierra until spring when the snow consolidates and conditions are more stable. If you think you'll venture out on overnight trips or up to the Cascades you might want to invest in the heavier down jacket.

Yes, keep the hands, feet, and head warm. It's just a little more weight to carry an extra pair of gloves. Also, throw a couple of those chemical warmers in your pack. I carry a body warmer and toe warmers when out in the winter - I've never used them except when out overnight, but I like having them just in case I get really cold before I can return to the trailhead.

Can't believe I forgot to mention the chemical warmers. Thanks, Kathy. I should own stock in that company: for winter hikes (both day and overnight) I like to throw a fresh set of hand warmers in the NEXT pair of gloves I'm going to put on and let them cook in my pack while we're hiking. I usually start with fleece liners, then move to mittens (warmer than gloves generally since you are skin-on-skin). By cooking the gloves in my pack, they are nice and warm when I finally put them on.

I will then throw one of the warmers down my sports bra (easy, guys... ). Sports bras are great for wicking, not so great for drying. So instead of having cold, wet fabric against my chest, the hand warmer keeps my core warm. (Along, of course, with the exertion of going both ways. I know coming DOWN the MR two weeks ago was almost as hard as the UP because of postholing with a big pack on...)

Just $.02 more cents... I'm sure I could work up to a dollar eventually...

The chemical warmers that Kathy & Laura mentioned are good to put in your pack. They take an hour or two to reach full warmth, so factor that in. Foot warmers are smaller and shaped for your feet, and hand warmers are usually too big to put under your toes, but in an emergency - anything goes.

They don't last forever, and when I hiked regularly in cold climates I replaced them each year. At a minimum, check them regularly. If they've hardened then chances are they're not good. Just because they're flexible doesn't mean they'll work either, so get a few sets just in case.

If you use foot warmers, they're usually way too hot to put next to your skin. Put on a sock liner first, then the foot warmer under your toes, then a wool sock. Even so, they may be so hot you have to remove them after awhile. If your feet are perpetually cold, then put them in right out of the gate, keeping in mind that it will often be an hour before they come up to temps.

One last bit - some people (estimates are about 10-15% of the population) have cold feet on ascents, but warm up on the descent. I'm one of those 10-15%. Why that happens seems counter-intuitive, but for me, it's just one of those things ...

Its nice to have a lot of stuff in the winter. To me, having dry clothing is the key. I carry multiple this and that during winter. Multiple hats, gloves and the right jacket or parka for conditions. The parka I use is a Moonstone Uber Down, which still can be found for sale, but most of the time I just take a Feathered Friends Hyperion Jacket.

My favorite jacket in the winter is an Arc'Tryx Gamma MX hoody. This jacket is damn near bombproof. Last weekend, in windy 20* F condition I was very comfortable with this jacket and Power Stretch balaclava.

Winter climbing is a bit tricker because your gear has to perform if you are going to be successful. All the above are great recommendations.

For the past three or four winter seasons, I've used the Marmot Guides Down Sweater all over the Sierra, Mt. Shasta and on Mexican Volcanoes. This is used in combination with other layers including base, fleece, shell.

http://marmot.com/fall_2007/mens/outerwear/insulated/guides_down_sweater

If you are looking into investing in down products, try Feathered Friends and Western Mountaineering. They are known in the climbing community to make the best down gear anywhere. For what you are doing, winter climbing in the Sierra, I recommend these.

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Jackets%20%26%20Vests&viewpost=2&ContentId=56

http://www.featheredfriends.com/Picasso/Garments/Mid/VolantJacket.html

These two companies custom built their products. You can add extra fill or get the shell material to your liking. Because the biggest downside to down is getting it wet, you can get shell that's waterproof and at the same time breathable. I own two jackets from FF and ordered another one as a gift. You'll not regret coughing up the major cash because it'll last you a lifetime.

I have two feathered friends sleeping bags - they are great bags and I'll never buy another brand while they're in business. I can imagine their clothing is just as good.

Thanks for the advice everyone. Keep it coming. I like to learn.

My head wasn't cold. I had a beany - Peruvian Inca style with the ear flaps and good neck coverage for the back of the neck. I occasionally had to pull up the ear flaps to vent the heat and let the ears and head cool off a little bit. Because this caused the cute braids that come out of the bottom of the ear flaps to stick out a bit, Tomcat started calling me Pipi Longstocking. I told him that Moosetracks would have been jealous of the red braids. My hands were plenty warm in thin liner gloves. My feet were a little cold but not miserable. I had on two layers of wool socks and hiking boots. A friend that wore running shoes and thin socks that day had her toes go numb. The legs were fine with a single layer/hiking pants. The torso is what got cold mainly when we stopped and when we got slammed with the 60 MPH winds on the summit area. I had a polypro long sleeve shirt. A fleece sweater (Polartec 200). And a Marmot Precip hard shell. I don't think the food was the issue. I don't eat breakfast before a hike. I occasionally have a coke. I don't eat much during a hike as I don't need to and I'm familiar with my body's energy needs. Besides I have a good 20-35 pounds of stored energy that I like to tap into during a hike. My cheeks were cold also. The ones on my face to be exact. Perhaps a balaclava might be a good investment. Isn't that also the name of a mediterranean pastry? There I go thinking about food again.

Rafael...

"I don't think the food was the issue. I don't eat breakfast before a hike. I occasionally have a coke. I don't eat much during a hike as I don't need to and I'm familiar with my body's energy needs. Besides I have a good 20-35 pounds of stored energy that I like to tap into during a hike. "

Not to be argumentative, but...............

"How efficient your body is in using its energy fuels is closely related to physical condition, rest, and nutrition. The better your condition, the greater the efficiency with which food and water will provide energy during heavy exercise. A well-rested, well-fed climber is less likely to experience difficulties from exertion, heat, cold and illness."

"...the need for the body to have adequate fuel to function well becomes immediately apparent on a strenuous climb. Beginning climbers sometimes make the mistake of assuming that a climb is a good time to eat lightly and shed extra pounds. However, using stored body fat as fuel is usually not the most efficient way for the body to function. If you are not eating enough while climbing, you will find yourself tired and our of sorts, unable to enjoy yourself fully or to function at your peak."

'Hypothermia and frostbite are more traditional winter health hazards. You can prevent both through awareness of the hazards and with adequate clothing, food, and water. Avoid chills by staying as dry as possible and eating and drinking adequately."

Above excerpts from "MOUNTAINEERING, the Freedom of the Hills."

"The nutrients that are used by cells for fuel (metabolic substrates) during rest or light daily activities also change in cold environments. In mild conditions, lipids are the primary substrates, accounting for 59% of all energy expenditure. When resting for 2 hrs. in cold air (5 deg. C, 41 deg. F), carbohydrates become the preferred fuel for shivering thermogenesis, derived from both blood glucose and intramuscular glycogen stores. ...these responses are different during exercise in cold air. Interestingly, the onset of low blood sugar (hypoglycemia) has been shown to inhibit shivering thermogenesis in humans; this further emphasizes the importance of carbohydrates as a substrate for shivering." from "PERFORMING IN EXTREME ENVIRONMENTS." Armstrong.

Use of fuels in in light to moderate workloads in cold compared to mild temps:

Free Fatty Acids: Less
Glucose (blood glucose) Slightly higher
Rate of muscle glycogen use: Higher
from Armstrong, Performing in....

"Even when your core temp. is above normal, if your skin is cold you will 'feel' cold and begin shivering. And if your core temp. is low but your skin is warm, you will 'feel' warm, and will not shiver despite being hypothermic. If you warm your skin without providing any heat to the core, you extinguish the drive to shiver and thus produce less heat." from WILDERNESS 911, Eric A. Weiss, M.D.

Treatment of Mild Hypothermia:
No. 3: Give the victim warm food and lots of sugary hot fluids to drink." from WILDERNESS 911.

Dehydration, by the way, can lead to hypothermia. Depletion of carbohydrate stores can lead to dehydration.

The greater the exertion, the greater the percentage of energy from carbs.

The greater the altitude, the greater the percentage of energy from carbs.

Inadequate carbohydrates will negatively affect fat metabolism.

From your clothing description Rafael, I'd say you were wearing the right stuff, so I'm with Expro - look at your food and fluid intake. Don't diet on a hike - eat a good breakfast before a hike, one high in carbs with some fat and protein. A couple of slices of toast with an egg and OJ covers all the bases. Some have a bagel and yogurt - whatever suits your fancy, but if you skip breakfast it's tough to stay warm. Metabolizing your body fat takes way too long. And perhaps even more important is the need to stay well-hydrated. Most of us don't want to drink as much when it gets colder, but if necessary - force yourself. Without adequate fluids our bodies can't move blood around as easily, and blood provides warmth. "Thicker" blood can also be a consideration if you have cardiac issues.

ExPro's listed some good references.

If it was not so much your arms, as your actual trunk, I'd think in terms of a vest. Much less expensive, and you should be able to find some deals that would work well.

Best deal I quickly find:

lands end down vest