Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Permit process, my two cents.

BS.

Conquest,

Believe me, I understand the other side of the issue, which is overuse and abuse of our natural resources and the desire to prevent or minimize this from happening. I know people here are not mean-spirited and do not desire to exclude people from the wilderness, but I am just taking my points to the extreme so that people can understand the principle of equal access to public land.

I know there are no easy solutions but I still think poor or unclean facilities are inexcusable given all the tax revenues the govenment receives and subsequently wastes. I will never excuse the government for that.

As for people who don't clean up their mess, again heavy fines will discourage these people from doing it again or coming back. My thing about $10,000 was to make a point. Even the regular $1000 littering fine will wake people up.

Ken, obviously we are just going around and around so we will just have to agree to disagree.

However, paying $250 for taking a reservation is nuts. The motivation for such a high fee is clearly to discourage the number of applicants so that you or anyone else who is willing to pay will have a better shot at it. I've made my point that it's not about funds because the government already wastes plenty of our money.

AHA! You have confused my proposal, to increase the reservation fee from the current $15, to $25..........with someone else's proposal to raise it to $250!! I DO NOT ADVOCATE THAT.




Huh? Where do you get this?

you said
quote: If they say there is no money then point them to where they lost track of $25 billion and tell them they have no right to say they have no money. unquote


I'm saying to call your Senate and State Representatives (you know, those guys and gals in Congress that approve the budget) and tell them to fund the Forest Service properly instead of wasting billions of our dollars.

You make it sound like the permit reservations are just a mere convenience. The fact is, ALL permits within the quota period are reservable. So I guess if all the rich people have reserved all the permits then there are none left for all us poor folks. And if there are some left, people would have to drive all the way to Lone Pine just for the chance (a chance, not even guaranteed)

Ah, you want a GUARANTEE. An ENTITLEMENT. You want SPECIAL TREATMENT. Fine. Pay for it!

If you had been following the discussion on this board, you would find that there averages something like 15 permits available for walk-in each day THAT ARE NOT USED. There are PLENTY of walk-in permits. You are only talking about the concierge service of GUARANTEED permits at the MOST CONVENIENT time

that someone has cancelled their reservation. I guess all of us who can't afford the $250 "convenience" will have to just have to drive back home if there are no scraps left for us. I find it offensive that the determining factor to who has a better shot at our public lands is money. We should all have an equal shot.

It also don't take a rocket scientist, or backpacking credentials, to know you need clean, working, restroom facitities at high use areas such as the Portal and possibly Trail Camp. No one is suggesting you put them every 100 feet on every trail in the wilderness.

There ARE clean, working restroom facilities at the Portal! There are also such facilities at the Hollywood Bowl, but sometimes, they get messed up. Nice if you have excess funds to take care of problems like unanticipated usage.

Restroom facilities are incompatible with the legal requirements of a wilderness area. You are one of those Americans that advocates that the gov't follows the law, right? You certainly don't advocate that the USFS violate the law? If you work hard to get your illegal toilets installed, then perhaps the police can come and arrest you for conspiracy to violate the Wilderness Act. I think the fine is only $10,000!

Perhaps you can point us all to an example of restroom facilities that exist elsewhere in America in wilderness areas?



Tell that to the Forest Service. please read the General Accounting Office's report on Fee Demo ( http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO-03-470 ). See page 32 where the Forest Service admits they spent $10 million from appopriated funds (that's general tax revenues) to pay for administering this program.

I'm telling it to YOU. You are choosing to use an example that DOES NOT APPLY. I say that the infrastructure for permit reservations already exists. You think that if there is additional money put into the system, that it will be spent on more infrastructure. Ok, start naming the infrastructure. Start justifying your position. Not with examples from far away, we are not talking about programs in, say, North Carolina, lets talk about the program HERE. I'm talking about here, if you don't want to talk about here, then you are in the wrong thread.

I'm glad you don't advocate that. But my point remains the same whether it is $250 or $25. Such an increase is not warranted (again plenty of money if the goverment were made to be responsible) and it's only use would be to exclude the number of applicants.



Yeah, I was referring to calling your Congressional representatives and telling them to use our funds properly.



No, I want equal access. If funds are not an issue (which it should be because we pay taxes already) then paying further is only a means to provide an advantage for one group over another.



I don't know, the restrooms at the Portal were pretty dirty when I was there 2 weeks ago and people here have been saying the same thing in that other thread. Also, Whitney Portal is not in a designated Wilderness Area. Even the "Whitney Zone" technically isn't either but is a special use area. I have been in many Wilderness Areas and most of them are pretty deserted (not high use). No, there are no restrooms. You wag bag it or dig a cathole.

"I don't know, the restrooms at the Portal were pretty dirty when I was there 2 weeks ago and people here have been saying the same thing in that other thread."

And it would be easy to infer that they are dirty all the time. I doubt that, just as I would for the Hollywood Bowl. And that has not been my experience. There have been posts that they routinely get cleaned every two days. Perhaps you are advocating that the cleaning lady should get the brunt of the response?

Also, Whitney Portal is not in a designated Wilderness Area. Even the "Whitney Zone" technically isn't either but is a special use area.

Trail Camp is, and that was where you were advocating bathroom facilities.

I have been in many Wilderness Areas and most of them are pretty deserted (not high use). No, there are no restrooms. You wag bag it or dig a cathole."

So you have no precedent for your advocated action.

" Such an increase is not warranted (again plenty of money if the goverment were made to be responsible)"

Lets see, how long has that battle been going on? Let me know when you have accomplished it! For those of us who actually want to see something change in our lifetimes, I think some other approach is warranted....like a modest increase in the fee for the convenience service, but not for the access, which would remain.....free.

"No, I want equal access. If funds are not an issue (which it should be because we pay taxes already) then paying further is only a means to provide an advantage for one group over another."

You KNOW that funds are an issue. There is only a reservation service, because there has been a reservation fee. Eliminate the fee, and you eliminate the service. My innovation is to boost the fee, which will pay for services that both the reservers, and the non-reservers will benefit from. Those with the ability to pay, and the desire to get the EXTRA service, end up paying for those who cannot afford to be paying, such as the "riff-rafts".

I think you are right about this issue. People who pay taxes in the USA should get permits before people who do not pay taxes here. Also if the permit process were revised, people with a lot of money to invest in multiple reservation applications would be limited to having the same odds as those that don't.

The downside to asking/thinking/hoping that our tax dollars will be enough to maintain an area as popular as Mt. Whitney is if the money ain't there, it would more likely be closed instead of left to get filthy. Sad but true. We can argue taxes, fees, freedom, and I already paid here all we want, but be careful what you ask for.

I'm for a higher fee on Mt. Whitney (and only Mt. Whitney in the Inyo-Sequoia area) to pay for a higher level of service, including a real method of sanitation that is touron proof. Leave Whitney in the wilderness, but assume that many of those going there have no clue how to respect wilderness and just move on.

It actually makes me sad, as I've been climbing Whitney since 1972 when we just signed a register at the trailhead and went on up.