Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Quitting Whitney 4 Awhile/Bear Shot @ Portal

The expectation is that if there is a trash can around, someone is responsible for emptying it.

So, if there isn't money for the FS to get up there more often, take the trash cans out and MAKE people responsible to "carry out." (Sounds like a wag bag solution that probably won't work very effectively.)

Another suggestion: reduce Doug's fees to the FS and in return he'll make sure the trash cans are emptied on a regular basis. (I've seen the pickups with room to spare as the WPS trash heads down the hill.)

"So, if there isn't money for the FS to get up there more often, take the trash cans out and MAKE people responsible to "carry out." (Sounds like a wag bag solution that probably won't work very effectively.)"

If there isn't the money to pay for extra trash service, I'm wondering where the money comes from to remove the cans?

I'm fairly sure that the FS enters into a contract with the trash people for the season, so the trash service can staff appropriately. If they pull the cans, then they'll have a contract for trash removal from cans that are no longer there, and we'll be treated to the sight of Trash Trucks coming up to the Portal to sit and have coffee, but carry nothing out.

THAT sound like a typical government program!

Plus, where does the trash go at nite, as people are in the area? The Bear boxes are already pretty full. So...into the cars! When the bears rip open the cars to get to it, and the people get hit with the tickets, perhaps it will fund the war!


Ah, unintended consequences......

And while were on the topic of the FS being underfunded...

How did they come up with the money to destroy the Solar Toilets?

My thought for a number of years was that the toilets should have been avaiable as emergency shelters during the winter.

All right, enough joking around.

How much does it cost to burn down a solar latrine? Accelerant, matches and a video camera to tape the conflagration.

talking with Erlene on Saturday - the woman who has the contract to clean the bathrooms and trash cans is scheduled to come up every other day. noted on Saturday when arrive recent problems with vehicles including two with engine troubles. this cannot be a very profitable job when you factor in wear and tear on vehicle - no wonder they have a hard time keeping the position filled. normally every other day is probably plenty - but if a vehicle breakdown causes delays - the area is severly impacted come Friday evening as the masses roll in.

but: factor in the high volume of traffic for a weekend(much of it hikers too); people not taking responsibility; slobs(those of you stepped in the bathroom by the trailhead know)and it can be a real mess.

I think I will make it a point to keep green garbage bags in the truck when hiking out of the Portals from now on. it may not be much - but every little bit can help. if we see someone acting irresponsible maybe a few informative words will help at first(and if that doesn't work - tar and feathers should help)

Bobcat - Quitting Whitney for a while is a great idea - that area gets too much traffic this time of year and there are lots of other less crowded and beautiful places to see.

Kathy

Doug if you read this..I have some great.. Welcome To Bear Country posters..they are about 12"x 15" long heavy duty paper...they have all sorts of good info tips on when you are in Bear Country.
They could be put up on the bathroom doors inside and out and also on the dumpsters...I need to check 1st to make sure I could send them to you..as they are what we use up in the Tahoe Basin that the Bear League passes out..for all the tourist to read..They would be perfect I think, there is a lot of very good info that maybe people may not be even no about. We also have these magnetic posters that we but on the dumpsters here to tell people to make sure they close them right. It has helped in one area here in Tahoe where people were not closing the dumpsters right. I am leaving today for a backpacking trip..so will check again when I get back next week if this is something you may want me to send you..it may help!

And I thought I was joking when I stated in an e-mail to a friend that I was going to try and convince the FS to let me have the Trash Concession at the Portal.

If it doesn't pay enough to maintain the vehicles required to get the job done, I'm not intereested. (Sad commentary on where this place is headed.)

Besides the trash problems down at the Portal and the unkept facilities, the wag bags seem to be the biggest problems that need addressing. From all the comments I've been reading, it's obvious not everybody on the mountain is using the bag correctly, or if they are, they are leaving them on the mountain. It's hard to believe there are so many irresponsible people out there.

Myself and 9 others are heading up on Friday. We plan to spend Thursday night at the Portal. I'm not looking forward to it. Overflowing cans, TP everywhere, lack of bear boxes, unkept toilets.......and now wag bags left on the mountain......My idea of pristine wilderness no longer exist.

I hiked Whitney about 7 years ago and saw none of these problems. The Portal was clean. Bears were around breaking into cars, but not hasseling people. Most of the other hikers were considerate. The solor toilet at trail camp kept the surrounding areas clean. There were people who were using the toilets as garbage cans. I'm not sure which is the worst of two evils here. Garbage in the toilet, or garbage and wagbags left behind rocks, or scattered across the hillside.....

I believe the majority of the people out there who are destroying our wilderness need policing. Obviously, they are too ignorant to be out there alone. If its too expensive to keep a ranger on the trail, maybe the only solution is to make the main trail a guided only trail. Individuals must pay a guide to take them up. I've been many places where this is done and believe me it does keep the place cleaner, less overused, and usually the people leave with more knowledge about the environment. A little education can go a long ways......

To me this is a very interesting topic as it brings up a debate over how much management is needed or not needed, and how it is implemented.

In my experience there have been obvious cases where the national parks have managed well or poorly. I do not however understand how paying/spending for a little more trash/bathroom cleaning can be so underserved. Compare this to the damage to the property from bears, the harm it does to the bears, the mess on the more busy days and the frustration and reputation the park earns, I can’t believe there are some very creative ideas to manage this issue within a reasonable budget and approach.

One thought that comes to mind right away is to cut another campsite for a second contract camp host to collect trash more often and maintain the restrooms better during peak periods. My parents in their motor home retirement years did these kind of things at the RV parks they stayed at (all summer) in exchange for their site fees being waived and the social enjoyment.

There are ways without spending a great deal of money or overregulation.

It seems simple.

Camp hosts do not collect trash.

I don't know the specifics on this, but I would venture that there are state regulations about who can collect trash....need to have bonds, insurance, etc.

Also, if a camp host is functioning as such, they are usually (for the FS), considered a volunteer. As such, they are protected from work comp injuries (as they should be). However, the way it works in practice, is that if there is a WC injury, the costs come directly out of the Inyo NF budget, meaning that something else has to be cut to compensate. They are pretty fanatic about safety, you wouldn't believe the processes.....

This is one of the reasons for the elimination of the toilets on the trail.....it required rangers to handle the waste, and they routinely got exposed. All it would take is one person to get Hep B, and have a bad course....it would take up a huge percentage of the Inyo budget to pay for their care.

Okay Ken I was just trying a suggestion. Regulations, money, beaurocracy.

Another related issue,
Horseshoe Meadows camp had two sets of bathrooms. One near the camp, one near the trailhead. Though all were mildly messy by the end of the weekend, the trail head set was much less so, and did not emit the same foul overused odor of the camp toilets.

In addition, everyone was challenged by the lack of camp site bear boxes, which mine was very very packed though no group seemed to have an unreasonable or overabundance of food/boxes. At least 7 campsites using the same centrally located bear box.

I think it is CRITICAL for there to be some original thinking used on these problems. If I have one major complaint about the FS, it is that they seem to stay away from that. The money I at least, understand. Getting caught up in the process ("because we've always done it that way"), is beyond my understanding.



I can't say about the Inyo, but on the Sierra National Forest, where I volunteer, my volunteer group installed some 300+ bear boxes on that forest. WE HAD TO OBTAIN THE BOXES, which were hand-me-down boxes that were being replaced with the newer ones, in the SEKI parks. We had to provide the money for transporting the boxes. The Sierra NF contributed nothing, because they had nothing available to contribute.

It is all about the money, or lack of and unfortunatly due to human misconduct and overuse in the woods, the FS is forced to put limits on how many people can go up a mountain on a given day. Multiply the people with the cost of the permits ($15.00) and its not enough revenue left over to keep the place clean. I don't have the actually numbers, maybe one of you out there does, but it seems by putting a limit on how many can go up, the park service limited their income. So, do you increase the fees to meet the cost of maintaining the parks, if so, how much? Will increased fees eliminate the unwanted behaviors, improve proper disposal of waste, keep our wilderness pristine, and still allow hikers the freedom to do as they please? I guess we are talking big bucks to achieve that goal. I don't like over regulations anymore than you guys, but quantify over. I don't need someone looking over my shoulders making sure I'm responsible for cleaning up after myself, but its quite obvious there are others who do.

Time to get on the road and head to Whitney. Hopefully, its not as bad as everyone is making it out to be.

Too many feckless agencies tripping over their own anatomies, too much reliance on same, too little common sense.

But we still put up with it to go high in the Sierra, Tuesday.

Ken,

Whose decision was it to install the bear boxes? The volunteers or the FS?

How did this plan plan come about? I find it difficult to believe the FS initiated a project and made no monetary contribution toward completion of that project. The fees collected under the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act are intended for projects just as this one.

Where did these 300 bear boxes get installed?

Memory, I'd hope it would be obvious that no bear boxes get installed without FS decisions to do so.

I wasn't involved in the decision process, but I understand that the Sierra NF became aware of the "surplus" boxes, and because they had no resources in that year's budget to obtain them, move them, and install them in the ensuing couple of months, they asked the volunteer group if they could do it.

The FLREA funds, I believe, are funded on a yearly cycle, that requires an in-depth application for funds that generally takes many months to complete. I don't do that stuff, though, so ya got me! Oh, the FLREA was passed in 2005, we did this work in 2004.

They were installed in the Huntington Lake/Florence Lake/Edison Lake region, basically in all the campgrounds.

The forest service is not good on doing anything quickly. We do get some funds through federal sources, which are funneled through the local FS. Generally, we get the funds about two months after the season has ended, and to actually do the work, we have to pass the hat, and hope we get paid.

There are some pictures at the end of this page that show some of the work:
http://www.trailcrew.org/2004/photo_webpages/a2004_huntington2.htm

Note the lack of anyone wearing a USFS uniform.

Ah, we did use USFS 2-1/2 ton trucks on-site to move the boxes, but we had to use a commercial hauler from SEKI, and we had to go down there to load them onto the hauler.

TRUST ME when I say that it is worse than you have any idea.....

Ken,

Thanks for sharing the pictures, the bear boxes appear to be the older models that were originally installed in places like SEKI and Yosemite.

My question about who made the decision was not made out of ignorance of who makes ALL the decisions relating to the NF. I was questioning why the FS would not offer up any funding if they were driving the decision to relocate these bear boxes. But from your follow-up post it appears your group was re-imbursed for some funds albeit two months later.

I would like to point out that the FLREA was passed and signed into law in late 2004, assuredly after your volunteer group performed the work. But funds could and should have been available as part of the "Fee Demo Project" which had been ongoing since 1996. I can only guess that the used boxes became available after the budgets had been prepared and some quick thinking FS manager saw a great opportunity and seized upon it (I am assuming the FS got them through the GAO excess property program at no cost to the FS). I guess your group could have said no if it had the potential for creating an undue financial hardship on the group.

Personally, I applaud anyone that does voluteer work. I think it is a very noble use of one's time and committment to their community. However, I get a sense of frustration from you towards the FS about funding and re-imbursing some group and/or project expenses. I have never done volunteer work where I expected monetary re-imbursement for any of my expenses. I would hope your group leadership would have had assurances from the FS for any out-of-pocket expenses associated with truck or equipment rentals for the project.

I see the group did some work in 2005 on bear boxes as evidenced by the site photo album. It would appear this is an ongoing project for your volunteer group. It is valuable work that has no doubt had positive results in protecting the bear population in that area of the Sierra NF.

Ken, Nice work.

Do you happen to know if the Forest Service has considered having a program like Adopt-a-Highway to help maintain campgrounds?

Memory Lapse brings up the "Fee Demo Program", the program that is part of the "Adventure Pass" program that, among other things, requires one to buy a pass simply to park a car on the side of a road in a national forest, presumably as way of helping fund park and campground upkeep.

That program is so flawed/a sham. Money from the program is absolutely NOT going to where it was originally promised to go. (Some is, of course, but in the overall shufffling and juggling of funds, and the cost of running the program, it is not doing what it was supposed to do.)


It is tied in with serious and concerted corporate efforts to privatize the operation of many parks and campgrounds. The trail of corporate lobbyists connected with the "entertainment industry" supporting the Adventure Pass and Fee Demo Program makes this clear.

Does it take any stretch of the imagination to believe that Disney would love to employ a ticket taker at Whitney Portal, etc.?

I would not be at all surprised, in fact I would bet, there are certain forces happy to see or even encouraging the deterioration of services and funds to our parks and campgrounds to soften us up so we will welcome privitization.