Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board How "scary" is the Mountaineer's Route?

Ok, I've read several trip reports on the Mountaineer's route, but I still can't decide for sure if I could handle it well or not.

I'm not a person who is terribly scared of heights, but when you start adding exposure, I can get a little queezy. And I'm not a big fan of scrambling and bouldering, but I've done it a few times without incident and it was almost kind of fun.

I know I'm asking a vague question with no precise answer, but I guess I just want to hear how scary you thought the worst parts of the route were, and maybe from those accounts, I can figure out if it is for me. I think I'd be fine with it, but still not sure...

I did the Mountaineer's route in late July during an average snow year. When I went, there was no snow in the col above Iceberg Lake. It was pretty much what I expected which was a lot of rock scrambling. It also took a lot of patience and decision making especially at the bottom near the Ebersbacher Ledges. As far as scary is concerned, I never felt I was in a position where I could fall and hurt myself. The whole time I took the most conservative routes and I took my time. However, had there been snow covering the route, I would have been scared of falling and I probably wouldn't have gone. Without snow, the Mountaineer's route is doable with a minimum of technical skill, but add snow and it's a whole different thing. Finally, when I went, I really wanted to do the the Mountaineer's route. I wanted to scramble up rocks the entire time and never see a trail except at the beginning. It was quite involved and demanded all my concentration and energy. I wasn't disappointed.

I just wanted to clarify what I meant by not being in a position where I could fall and hurt myself. Actually, there were areas that I could have fallen and hurt myself, for example, if I was careless on the Ebersbacher Ledges. However, I never felt that there was a place on the route where I could fall for lack of technical skill. I always felt that as long as I took my time and chose the safest rocks to scramble up, I would be fine.

how scary is in the eye of the beholder, in my view. Lot's of people are scared to fly in airplanes, while most people don't think twice about it.

How difficult the MR is to you is a combination of conditions, experience and knowledge of the route. I take novice climbers up the route every year because it is very straightforward to me, but the exposure does scare some people. With some help, most can get through it. If you are not an experienced climber, I would suggest that you go with someone who knows what they are doing and you can have a fun and safe time on the route.

From the posts so far it sounds like it'd be fine if it was dry and if I was able to follow the best route. If I choose to do it, I'm going to do a lot of research because not being able to stay on the best route would be my biggest fear (next to falling a few thousand feet).

I would think that I could probably find some dependable GPS waypoints or a track of the entire route in .gpx format. That would make the routefinding less difficult. But I'd be sure I could do it without the GPS as I don't want to depend 100% on something electronic if I don't have to.

I do enjoy some of the scrambling as long as I feel I can do it relatively safely if I go slow, etc. I wish there was some way to learn some "mountaineering skills" here in Atlanta, GA. I guess I could read up on some things, but it wouldn't be like having someone show you.

For instance, I'm sure there are some techniques for descending class 3 terrain that I am unaware of. I would worry about descending the route more than the ascending part..I know you can exit down the main Whitney Trail, but I want to be prepared if I couldn't get a permit.

And if there was snow or ice on the trail, I definitely wouldn't try it. I did a moderately snowy/icy Angels Landing hike in Zion NP in March and it was a very stressful and unpleasant experience. I hope to go back and do that trail in dry conditions just to replace the bad memories with some good ones.

I definitely would want some good memories of a Whitney hike...

All I have to say is that this is a great question which is probably unanswerable unless you try it which I haven't yet but would like to. Good answers. I have been up the ledges many a time without knowing they were ledges of risk but maybe now being older, it might be different. Next year, I'll give it a play depending on the snow. Thanks for asking and thanks for the answers. Mt. Langley next week after a couple of days in Mitre Basin. What else can you ask for? Well, Let John move West and keep me dry.

GPs is not helpful for routefinding, in the sense that it is meant on this route.

The routefinding is not the "do I go up this valley or ridge" type of thing, it is "do I go up this rock, or that rock over there."

GPS does not have sufficient accuracy to help with this, at all.

For example, in this wonderful picture of Snownymph's, the GPS would tell you that you go up the ridge. It would not tell you where you put your feet to make progress.

http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/553367010/2599669510067347782fYXspw

I did the MR July 30th for the first time. In fact it was my first time on Whitney and above 12 K. I would strongly suggest you go up with someone that knows the route. It would not be difficult to get yourself in trouble, in fact prior to my trip I read a few posts on this site of people who got in to serious trouble because of poor decisions - they were lucky, but some have not been in the past. There are a few places (like the ledges for example) where I would have a had to wait for someone to come along the trail to be able to see the route up. I'm sure I could have made it, but with another MR experienced hiker I could enjoy the trip verse trying to figure out where to go.

I don't mind some exposure, as long as I have a good grip and decent footing. The choices up the route my fellow hiker made provided both. We even took a short-cut up the ledges which provided exposre and some climbing, but it made it a bit more fun (and gave me a great picture for the wall). That said, it sounds like your past experience is consistent with the demands of the route - at least in my limited MR experience. However, take care, it is dangerous in places. The ledges, the small waterfall, the chute up to the notch, the final climb to summit and various other sections take some knowledge, some route finding skills and careful consideration during each step / move or your Whitney experience may turn south very quickly.

But after my trip, I'm going back (even after my AMS and challenges I had)- and the MR route is certainly the one for me.

Good luck - and read everything you can find on this site before you go - with or without a MR "guide". When do you plan on going? I have a few friends that want to make the trip very soon.

Enjoy the trip.

One more point about GPS. I took mine to mark the route for another friend that wants to do the MR, but it was useless. The prior comments are right on about GPS on this route. Just extra weight with no return.

It seems like a GPS route would not be "useless", but I can see what you are saying that it might not be much help. But at least it would prevent you from going too far off the preferred route.

It may not help you pick the specific rock, but it's easier to find that rock if you are within 15 feet of it rather than 50 or 100 feet away.

My son and I went up the MR first time this summer with Kurt Wedberg (who posts on this board). We did it in a day, per my request, and Kurt not only made it easy, fun, and totally enjoyable, but it was also excellent training and education on a number of levels that we never would have had if we had tried it on our own.

The MR sounds so much better than the overly long main trail. Why do so many people take the main trail vs the MR?

Maybe it is just lack of education and the name "Mountaineer" that scares people off...I always assumed that meant climbing up sheer vertical cliff wall and never gave the MR a second thought.

But then I found this site and read some trip reports and did more research and I think it is probably doable from what people have said. My main fear now is not being able to follow the route and not the exposure or climbing. Well, I am not going to try it until next summer so hopefully I can do enough research to be fine.

Well, you've got a year. Probably a good idea to spend it productively.

From your post about GPS, I'd gather that you don't yet have a lot of mountaineering experience. You can stand at the base of El Capitan, and if you think a GPS is going to tell you where to climb, you are going to be standing there a VERY long time.

In the context in which route finding is being used in this thread, it relates to experience making progress over a trail-less route. You know the route....you are going to climb to the top of that notch, for example. But where do you put your feet? This is NOT something you learn from a book, from a lecture.....and certainly not from a GPS.

It would probably very helpful to get some rock climbing experience, and the good thing is, that rock climbing season is during the winter in much of the country!

g'luck!

tchiker said "The MR sounds so much better than the overly long main trail. Why do so many people take the main trail vs the MR?

Maybe it is just lack of education and the name "Mountaineer" that scares people off...I always assumed that meant climbing up sheer vertical cliff wall and never gave the MR a second thought.

But then I found this site and read some trip reports and did more research and I think it is probably doable from what people have said. My main fear now is not being able to follow the route and not the exposure or climbing. Well, I am not going to try it until next summer so hopefully I can do enough research to be fine."

I would not trivialize the Mountaineers Route. Yes, it is climable by someone with appropriate experience and skills and/or with a guide. However, people have died on this route and there are places on the MR where inexperience can lead to injury or death. It is significantly more challenging than the main trail. There are places where getting off route, and the route is not obvious or marked, can get you over your head very quickly. Those are the main reasons why the MR is not done by more people.

Tchiker -
I suppose the (GPS was useless) comment was a bit overstated, as it could help with the crossings back and forth along the canyon the route goes up and if a person hasn't seen the small waterfall to climb up a GPS woud indicate you need to turn right at that point. However, I completely agree with Sierra Sam and Ken. A bad choice or two and it can get very ugly, and going down the ledges in the dark would be no fun to say the least. Time would become an issue on this route if one wasn't familiar with the route and took additional time figuring where to go on the way up. If you leave to early you'll be climbing the legdes in the dark (which for a 1st trip up the MR would probably be impossible) or waiting for light. One is extremely dangerous and the other generates little or no additional time. (Not to mention that this route in a day is very very strenuous so the extra sleep and energy is a must.) So, the opportunity to get back down the ledges during daylight relies on the time taken to get up and down rather than leaving at 3am - for example, like the main trail. For me the MR was really a route where you know the direction, now lets pick our way up through this section. I suppose a GPS can help with this. Aside from a few places (the lower elevations being one) there is no real trail. You pick your route and there are numerous ways to get through each area. This is where route finding skills or prior experience is the key. With that said if a GPS is the main "companion" to get one up the route - it will fall seriously short. The reason I stated mine was useless was because down lower I had no signal, so it would not help my friend find the route down low on his trip. Instead I will do the route with him.

Anyway - the only reason I am posting is because I found the info on here invaluable when I went up (even with a friend that had done the route over 10 times) and I want to share my experience and what I learned.

Be careful during and thoughful before, and you will have a great time. Which is all any of wishes for all us.

Well, you guys are beginning to scare me again about the route, which perhaps is a good thing. I wish I could go with someone who had done it before, but I'll probably be doing it solo.

Anyway, I suppose I'll continue to read about it and try to perhaps learn some basic rock climbing skills, although I'm not sure how to do that here in Atlanta, GA. Although I'm actually going to Joshua Tree for a day or two in January, so I guess I could "practice" there if I can figure out what I need to practice beforehand.

I guess there are numerous exciting hiking adventures in the High Sierra, so I can always find some other place to hike if I decide the MR is beyond my reach for now.

What is and isn't safe while hiking/climbing in general is an interesting question. I was considering it while descending a long flight of stairs in a building. I realized that there was exposure in that descent down the stairs. If I slipped I could seriously hurt myself or even die. So why wasn't I worried? Experience. I knew from experience that I had the technique to go down the stairs safely.

I think the same consideration applies in the mountains. The more experience you have with a situation, the less dangerous it becomes and the less fearful. So, when experienced people say something's not dangerous, that may be true but it may also be that they are sufficiently familiar with the situation so that it is not dangerous for them, but it may be dangerous for someone who hasn't done it before.

The experience, skill/coordination, and judgement of the individual is as important as the route conditions when considering if it is dangerous. Just my opinion.

Why on earth go solo? There are many places to hook up with a partner.
www.outdoorsclub.org Get a permit for, say, three, post a trip, you'll have a choice of people, choose some with experience.

Is Atlanta somehow off the map? Do Atlantans lack google?

http://www.cyberclimber.com/georgia.html

http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/listState.php?CountryStateID=54
says:

"If Tennessee is known for sandstone traditional lines, Georgia is surely the king of wonderfully textured southern sandstone boulders . Rocktown is one of the largest boulderfields in the East and so many smaller fields are scattered over Georgia's topography that most of them will never even be found. Georgia also has its share of bold trad routes also. Tallulah Gorge offers some of the hardest leads in the Southeast, rivaled possibly only by North Carolina's big walls in its frightening exposure and knee-knocking aid pitches."

On your trip to Joshua, you will practice? Practice what? You don't know how to climb, this is not something you learn how to do in a couple of days. Hire a guide for a day, and you'll learn a lot!!

In fact, hire a guide through Sierra Mountaineering International, one of the few guide services that guides both Whitney and Joshua Tree, and you can spend the day on the rock, talking with an expert on the mountaineer's route.

Well, I did do some Google searches in the last hour and found a couple of good rock climbing classes to take to improve my skills in that area. There is one indoor class, and one outdoors at Sawnee Mountain Preserve where I go hiking quite often. So I'm excited about those and maybe will do a bit of Class 3 climbing at Joshua Tree too to get more comfortable and skilled with it.

I think if I can just learn some basic climbing skills and practice them a bit, I'll be more confident overall and enjoy the MR if I try it. If I could hook up with someone for the hike, I would do that, but I can't afford to hire a guide for the day.

I will check out the outdoorsclub link though and perhaps post here and elsewhere when I know for sure when I'm going to try it and then perhaps someone else can join me.

good thinking. My view is that indoor rock classes are good for learning basic techniques, but you need to get outside to learn how to read a route, learn about exposure, etc. Real rock routes don't have the convenience of colored tape to tell you where to put each hand and foot and a move 1000' off the ground feels harder than the same move 5 feet up.