Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Altitude, Research, and a week at the Portal!

I returned yesterday, from nearly a week at the Portal, interviewing returning climbers on their experiences with altitude illness after their attempts on the mountain. The researchers will be continuing the interviews for another 1-1/2 weeks, so please contribute if you are able, and happen to go up there during this time.

A few impressions:

First, I was astonished at how willing people were to be interviewed. I personally interviewed 180 people.
We really got this down, taking probably 3 min/per person, including oxygen measurement, but people were obviously exhausted, dehydrated, and hungry.....and more than 80% willingly stopped.
I felt bad asking people so tired, but many actually wanted to contribute. Some ran to the bathroom, or to get their burger, then came back. Some, such as Michael and Spinefxr, prepped their groups to be interviewed...it was part of the climb! As far as I am concerned, this restored some of my lost faith in people. Thank you, all, who put up with the bother!

Second, I met a number of people who had read this web site, and it was a real thrill to meet some people I knew only by "handle". Great to meet Spinefxr, Michael, and as always, to be surprised by Bob R, who was not scheduled to be up there! Also a bunch of people who read, but have never posted. It was a real thrill to hear people say "I read about you on the website!" What a great community of people!

Third, all the times I've been through the portal before, have been in the dark, and I'd never met Doug and Earlene. What incredible people. They are really "country folk", who put you at ease, make you feel like family, and do what they can to help. Although they were frequently swamped with work, they never failed to take some time to talk. Ah, the stories!

The pancakes! The burgers! And although I'd not seen people talk about it, what has to be the best coffee on the eastside!

Thanks to the Whitney climb community for a special experience!

I'm sure that people are interested in our results, and I will post the complete info, when available.

Some preliminary impressions:

(We have done less than half of the collection, but have discussed what we have been seeing amongst ourselves.)

First, no surprises...except, perhaps at the high rate of drug use. Probably 75% of people take *something*, even if only aspirin.

Those who do multi-day trips do better than single-day.

Those who do greater than three day trips have virtually no altitude problems.

Those who do mountaineering trips do better than those doing trips on trails.

Those who spend time at altitude before their climb do better than those who don't.

Those who hydrate aggressively do better than those who don't.

Those carrying smaller loads do better than those carrying a truck.

The descent is harder on the body than the ascent.

Those who used hiking poles seemed to have much less lower-body problems by the end.

Those that took Diamox had virtually no problems.
( I had a lot of discussions with people using diamox. About 1/2 were taking too high a dose <as they had been advised>. In the cases where I had the opportunity to suggest decreasing dosage, side effects essentially disappeared.)

Ginko did not have an obvious trend, but the numbers were small, and will need statistical evaluation.

Although not a part of our study, we were stationed at the trailhead structure, and most people stopped to weigh their packs. VERY FEW people were carrying appropriate weights. The average overnite pack was probably 35-40 lbs. (mountaineering packs were, of course, heavy, due to the technical gear).

It was astonishing, the number of people who had no clear idea of what they were going into. Hadn't read this site, hadn't read a guidebook, hadn't talked to a previous climber. We spent a LOT of time advising people on a variety of issues (all three of us have summitted multiple times, and the other two had spent 5 days on the summit two years ago). (I enjoyed talking with people, and hopefully helping them enhance their experience)

Biggest planning problem, not planning to start early enough to be off by the afternoon thunderstorms. A LOT of people came down the trail in the dark.

Ken,

Great posts. For what purpose are you gathering this data?

I have learned a lot in the time I've spent here. The people here are great and I hope to meet some on my mid September day hike.

Your statistical data would be the kind of information I would find useful. Will you publish this?

Uni, Ken talked about the study in this thread:

<a href=http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004756;#000007>Altitude Research starts next week at the Portal!</a>

Ken wrote:
> About 1/2 were taking too high a dose.
Can you say what the recommended dose is?

> VERY FEW people were carrying appropriate weights.
In your opinion, what is the appropriate weight range?

Very interesting study, Ken. I am looking forward to seeing all the results.

Sorry about that. I missed it.

Thanks.

Hi Ken:

I was one of the 180 people you interviewed (in my case on Sunday 7/30...see my trip report and mention of your study <A HREF="http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004836">here</A>).

Great job up there, they were probably long days. I can't wait to see the final results, but you're right, the informal results you shared above aren't surprising.

Your comment about the biggest planning problem being not leaving early enough (especially for 1 day trips) rings so true with me. This time around I started earlier than I had previously, and everything was easier...weather, getting down before it got dark, not feeling rushed, etc.

Hey Ken,

Thanks for taking the time to do that research. I'm looking forward to hearing more about it. I'm sure it'll be a valuable resource for all of us. I'm off to Russia for a couple weeks so I'll catch up with you upon my return.

All the best,

Kurt

Thanks for the comments, all.

It will probably be several months before the final results are out, and back from the statisticians. (yawn) Thats why I wanted to get some impressions up right away, for those interested.

Steve you asked: Ken wrote:
> About 1/2 were taking too high a dose.
Can you say what the recommended dose is?

There is a medical answer, and a common sense answer.

The medical answer ranges around 250 mg a day. Some recommend splitting the dose, some say a once at bedtime dose. However, the trend is to go lower, and I now recommend 125 once at bedtime. There were people taking up to 1,000mg a day.

The common sense answer is that if the dose you are taking is making you sick, it is too high a dose. This is based upon the truth that there is variation among people, and one size does not neccessarily fit all. I suppose that some people benefit from a higher dose, too. However I think that some of this should be worked out before arrival at the trailhead.

> VERY FEW people were carrying appropriate weights.
In your opinion, what is the appropriate weight
range?

I'd estimate under 10# for a day hike, 20# for an overnite, add about 2# for each day out, so 30# for six days. (doesn't count water, which in this area should never exceed 3 quarts, and probably that only on summit day.) The common overnite weights were in the 45# range. Ugh!

Hey Ken,

Interesting info; a lot of common sense stuff. Goes to prove the conventional wisdom one aquires through expirience.

Your twenty pound pack plus two pounds per day; I am interested in your pack list and gear weights. Help out my conventional wisdom!

By the way, good posts and info, thanks.

Walt

I've gotta go with Ken here. We saw all sorts of packs on the JMT last week -- big, small, and in between. Not surprisingly, asking someone with a big pack if he/she was doing the JMT usually resulted in an affirmative answer. It was striking, though, that people we met coming down Whitney with the biggest packs were not doing the JMT. They were usually doing a Whitney overnight. I think it's fair to say that more than a few of them could have cut the weight down a lot, had a better time, and still brought the espresso machine.

For what it's worth, I make no claim to qualify as an ultralight backpacker, but we did meet Ken's 20 lbs plus 2 lbs per day criterion. (Sadly, I had to leave the espresso machine home to do that.)

<a href=http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/3647/index.html?skip_to_post=26769#26769>Here is my gear list</a> if this can help.

ooopps and sorry to hijack this thread. Was not my intentions at all. I just wanted Walt to see a gear list that could possibly work for him.

Ken - It was a pleasure to meet and talk with you last week at the trailhead. Most of my group did a successful one-day summit on the 3rd, and many, including myself, took your survey upon completion of the hike. I'll be looking forward to when you have the data collection completed, and the results of this very worthwhile study published. Thank you very much.

Michael T.

why was the survey only interested in interviewing people from whitney summit only and blowing off other people returning from other high summits including russell which is 14k+ also

Tomcat, I did not design the study, so I cannot give you the exact thinking, but I think that the primary issue revolved around attempting to have as uniform a study as possible. As I understand it, the authors of the study from two years ago, came in for criticism because they did not limit the variables as much as the reviewers thought they should have done. For those of you who are not not involved in scientific research, one cannot just do what one wants, then have it automatically published. There is a very complicated review process, among which involves having the research reviewed by other renowned experts in the field. Those reviewers often determine whether the paper is published, or not. To be successful, one must anticipate likely criticism, and design the study so as to avoid elements that will make it more difficult to defend to reviewers.

Michael, it WAS a pleasure meeting you, as well!

Your companions really lucked out, having you with them to give them guidance and advice as to how to approach the climb. It does not surprise me that many made it to the top.

In less-mobile previous generations, could there be genetic adaptation to the mountains, or to the low lands, etc., by some groups? Over many millenia, same area, altitude, etc.

It could be some have mountain goat genetics mixed in. I think I see signs in my family.

Greg, I'm sure that there are some genetic issues.

We noticed that some people had oxygen saturation significantly below what the average hikers had, without any real reason that was obvious (eg, smoker).

Speaking of which, we did run across some smokers.....don't know how they do it!

Hey Ken-

I think I was wone of those who interviewed with you. I was the one that suffered just the nausea and not really many other symptoms. In my case I got the headache coming down the mountain rather than going up, but in retrospect I think it was actually a caffeine headache. I suppose in that sense that's a hint to me that I should really scale back on it for the longer hikes. That and I need to relax my grip on the trekking poles so that I'm not tearing up my thumbs!

If you're the same person that I spoke with (and believe me I was thankful for that fold out chair at the end) then it was good meeting someone from this board. With my lessons learned, I'm hoping for a rematch this year.

Force, I think it was probably me you met, and nice to meet you, also!