Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Down vr Non-Down Jackets

Good point, Bob.

Generally speaking, when this questions comes up, it is coming from folks who are seeking guidance for situations and conditions for which they have no experience.....and generally, that means people who are not experienced enough to be heading into severe conditions, and don't know how to take care of gear.

Anyone who is heading into Waddington-type conditions would generally have a lot of experience behind them, would understand the limitations of all kinds of gear, and would hardly need advice from a website.

However, that having been said, I continue to be impressed with the advances that seem to happen yearly with gear. I can take my Western Mountaineering bag, form a depression, and pour water into it, and it will sit there for an hour.
Any bag I've previously owned that I'd done that with, would have acted like a sponge. And that is without an expensive extra goretex shell. It just amazes me.

I've certainly not been in Waddington-type environments with the newest gear, and cannot guess what it is like now.

Sierra Sam - You gave a clear and concise explanation to the fill ratings. The other point that you are correct on is that there is no legally defined standard in the US for a company to rate their item to. Like you, that is why I stick with the companies with a well-known reputation in down products; Feathered Friends and Marmot are the two that I trust the most.

Another issue that a person needs to consider in picking what fill rating to get, besides cost of course, is just how cold does the individual get. I for one, have a high metabolism, therefore can stand a bit more cold than many of my friends. Last summer, I was on the summit of Whitney in shorts and a short-sleeved shirt, and was quite warm, while several of my buddies were bundled up in jackets. It is definitely an infividual thing.

Michael T.

I got a North Face Nuptse with 900 fill. That's right 900! I love that thing. In fact, I get too hot in it.

People with newer down gear, faith, and the desire to do good deeds, should put their things out in the yard during a good rainstorm, or overnight with the sprinklers on. Lay the sleeping bag out flat, and put the down parka on a hanger.

If the newer stuff is as good as Ken says, the synthetic products manufacturers could be in trouble.

That's a great idea, Bob. I've certainly been in the habit of doing that sort of thing with tents (seal those seams!).

10 years or so ago, I'd become convinced that down's days were numbered, it seemed like the advances in the Polarguard-type of insulations were making such strides, that they'd have a down-equivalent shortly. I don't know what happened, but that progress just seemed to come to a halt, and the down folks seemed to ramp up their products.

Bad news for geese!

Of course, it matters what one is doing. In our incredibly benign Sierra, down seems to be perfect for almost anything (maybe not rafting?) I'm so Sierra centric, that I tend to think along those lines, and of course, on this forum, devoted to Whitney, I tend to answer questions oriented to that environment of activity. On the Mt. Rainier board, the answers might be different.

Regarding fill numbers, comparisons between companies may not be exact for the same fill rating. The number is a ratio of volume to weight. BUT, if I lay gently each piece of down in the measuring cylinder using tweezers, I'll get higher loft than if I just dump the down in.

However, within a given company, the higher number is "better" (and more expensive) than the lower.

I've also heard that for a "standard" loft test (whatever that is) that a 900 fill rating is not realistic, that it is marketing hype. I think some are working on a real "Standard" but...

Here is an interesting article from Rock and Ice, about the newest line of about 1# sleeping bags. It talks about materials, environments, and extending temp ratings.

http://www.rockandice.com/gear/141%20Field%20Tested.pdf

Thanks Ken for the article. One thing I don't get is why they tested all Down bags except for the Marmot bag that was Primaloft? Seems to me they should of tested the Marmot Atom.

Mike: have no clue why they chose what they chose.