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Joined: Jun 2003
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Joined: Jun 2003
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Thanks for thinking of me as a regular on the mountain.

A lot of people seem to be opposed to additional fees. I wouldn't be, as long as there was some type of "annual" fee that wouldn't require me to pay a specified amount every time I headed up.

Almost every recreational activity has fees associated with it. Ken could probably confirm that there is a slip and/or launch fee (I remember how pissed I was when I was no longer able to launch my boat for free back in the 80's, but I got over it.) associated with his new sailing persuit. (Sorry Ken, I just couldn't resist another dig at you. When are the boots going on again? I probably wouldn't have left my camera behind if you had been there the other day. The food at the Mt. Baldy Lodge was good... would have been even better if you had bought me the beer you need to buy me.)

I just don't think the FS is going to go back to allowing a structure to be built in the "wilderness." (In quotes because I happen to agree that Whitney is more like an adventure park during the high season.)

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 305
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Muir said the wilderness never comes back, but over time it does. There are so many steps in the direction of ‘less wilderness’, one little step the other way can’t hurt. So I hope the outhouses never return.

Still, certain bad behaviors could create a health hazard or a costly clean-up, and no pun intended but that’s serious business. Like it or not, rules and enforcement are a fact of life and necessary. A ranger on every corner doesn’t really work any more than a ranger on every corner of any city (think ‘Baghdad’). It’s more a matter of the authority to act, and then how you enforce it. There’s a lot of room for exceptions, like for an experienced climber who comes upon unexpected conditions while hanging on a wall - with explosive diarrhea, over a pool, who immediately calls it in over his / her Blackberry.

Group 1 is people who know how to act responsibly and why. A wag bag is arguably the classic best of bad solutions. It could be a bad hygienic choice in certain situations, and some people may have enough experience and knowledge to make that call. Some people know the ancient art of safe living absent indoor plumbing, some don’t. Some people spend a lot of their lives up there on a daily basis, such as the rangers and other locals…they don’t want a local health hazard or ecological damage and have a much greater stake in this than the rest of us. Some aren’t locals but are in the backcountry enough to know what it takes to protect mountain water. These people will always do the right thing.

Group 2 is people who want to act responsibly irrespective of a lack of knowledge or experience. If a sign says “Pooping In the Whitney Zone Will Kill All Eagles Everywhere” some folks could see that as a reason to act responsibly. Or, maybe it’s an appeal to pride, or greed (avoid the large fine). Or maybe a media buy reinforcing the ‘but mine doesn’t stink’ universal truth. You take a completely agnostic open-minded approach directed to find ways to make people fell happy pooping in a bag (the ‘wag bag experience’). Wag bag celebrity spokespeople, Miss Wag Bag Pride Parades --- there are endless possibilities. Hollywood could get a revenue source from it and maybe kick back a little more water. People can be convinced to do the right thing.

From there you drop to Group 3, the group that doesn’t want to act responsibly. Now comes other motivations and deterrents, such as ‘huge fines’. You can’t get all the perps, but occasionally you get enough money to support the Lone Pine Climbing Wall Fer Kidz, etc. In more extreme cases perhaps you Taser (preferably AFTER the perp has evacuated), or find some alternative lower power energy weapon, maybe in a risk-reduced blend with a smaller-than-average puff of tear gas, or all that, along with, including, but not limted to, or in any combination thereof wherefore, additional humane stuff. Capilene restraints, of course, if need be.

Then the only problem is if someone starts wondering “…hmm…pooping in the water supply…how would they have handled that in the Wild West?…”. Everything works out badly in those cases.

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 49
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 49
I'd like to add Group 1A, those of us who want to act responsibly but have never been taught, or learned how to S__t in the Woods (or rocks). Is the book by that title a good reference? Are there others? Or does everyone learn by trial and error?

Kind regards,

Mark A. Patton

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 305
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Joined: Apr 2005
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When in doubt, wag it. Me I love the eagles I'm so there.

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 25
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 25
I have been climbing in the area since 1951
I will not and will never carry out my poop

someone left a a rather disgusting message at the summit a few weeks ago for some guy named richard P

I was on the mountain when they built the so called solar tolites

let the forrest service pack out the masses, the fees have gone up 150%

The amount of people on the hill has been lowered, let the forrest service earn their keep

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 961
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Joined: Dec 2002
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kkeating - The permit reservation fee for the Main Trail is $15. If you don't need to reserve a permit in order to get one, then the permit is $0. So not everyone who goes up ends up paying the fee ($15 for now).

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