Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Waste Management on Whitney

Taking care of business at the TH doesn't work for everyone, even on much shorter hikes than Whitney.

I read a while ago that some have used a wide mouth Nalgene bottle to dispose of their human waste...they wrapped the outside of it in duck tape....seems this might work better as far as not having a smell. Or a Gatorade bottle like Bob R says would probably work just as well.

The following link shows constuction of a PVC pipe "poop porter", etc. Admittedly used for kayaking, but you could make a smaller version for a day or two of hiking.

http://www.fastq.com/~jrschroeder/poop.htm

Regards, Keith

I like the idea of using a wide mouth Nalgene bottle best. I used two recently to store my mom's ashes before I scattered them near Mt. Pinos. I figure they can hold poop just as well. Let's make sure that we don't mistake them for our other water bottles. Maybe I can go to REI and buy a brown replacement cap.

Rafael...

Hey those look a little like the summit registers on many HPS peaks. Somebody would probably not be too happy if you lost one on the summit.



-Rick

Well, there's a scenario. Being on a summit and picking up a rock to get to the register and getting poop from the rock on you. Then opening the register and finding it's filled with poop. Then starting to leave the summit and stepping on a filled wag bag, splat!! Then setting your backpack down too hard, muffled splat. Then ...

hehehe... fecal dispenser... hehehe...

But I digress...

Thanks, wbt, for thinking of us women-folk when it comes to a "wee" bit of privacy. I actually remember posting a similar concern on a previous string when I asked about the shelters. Since I'm relatively new to the backpacking thing, I haven't quite gotten over the whole wide load exposed to all thing yet, so I'm always looking for the largest boulder around (and at 5'11", that's one honkin' rock!). I basically came to the conclusion that I need to deal with it and just cop a squat when needed. Until then, for all my day hikes, I agree with the Piotrowski approach (realizing that doesn't work for everyone!!).

I kind of like the ideas for charging people, somehow, especially if they "lost" their wag bag. I would hate *squish* to be hiking *squash* through a little off-trail *squoosh* area and come home with *sqoish* mud where it was actually dry ground *splat*. pfffftttt... oh, pardon me. ;-)

-Laura

This scatological thread has a life of its own .

As for privacy, remember that the Nepalese men are brought up by the women-folk and even squat to pee. You can spend a month with them in the mountains, and never see them go #1 or #2. The rest of us just let 'er rip anywhere. Point is, you can cleverly hide pretty much anywhere on Whitney unless you have the dreaded
instantaneous trots.

Here is a picture taken September 17, 2006 when we came up the Mountaineers Route to find them helicoptering the summit toilet up, up, and away.
Harvey

Bob, instead of taking your advice (as it relates to Outpost Camp), two FS people had the largest bonfire in Whitney history on November 30, 2006. The after-effects were noticable all the way down near the Whitney Zone Boundary (I smelled smoke) in the early morning of December 1, 2006.

Agree with all the others who state that there should be places ON THE MOUNTAIN to at least store the poop. You'll never find me humping my s*** up to the top and back and there is the possibility that an animal will get to the contents of my "hidden" treasure before I get back down and pick it up for disposal at the Portal.

Bob K.
In response to spot checks on wag bags to help reduce wag bags being left behind.

Perhaps they could issue serial numbers to each wag bag and log it onto the permit.That way you know who left the wag bag behind and charge the responsible party a clean up fee.This might reduce the wag bags left behind, even more.

Richard:

That would be my concern as well - animals getting into the bag when I'm off hiking without dragging it along. And I am just not anxious to be placing a wag bag in my bear canister either - food and NON-food just do not mix in my bacteriologist-trained background.

I actually have not dealt with wag-bags. Is there something that actually kills off the bacteria/other so that the bag does not expand as the bacteria go about their own digestive business? I recall lab samples that would literally blow off the caps of tubes and tubs!!!

Oh, and since I had responded to the original FS inquiry, I, too, got the OFFICIAL email yesterday.

LOL! ...but Mr. Ranger, I swear, my registered bag-o-**** must have fallen out of my pack back up the trail. So I picked up this stray I found lying along the trail. ...You say this one belongs to Richard P, and you're charging me with theft???

RockeyRoller, Serial numbers seems like a reasonable idea. But note that a devious person might just rip the serial number off of the wag bag before they toss it. Yuck. However, nothing is perfect and anything to discourage leaving the wag bag in the wilderness is worth a try and I think serial numbers would cause most people to think twice before abandoning their wag bags. Also, if people didn't care they would just crap on the ground without any pit and without any wag bag and I think those people are extremely rare. Serial numbers would probably help a lot.

Fred, Squeezing the air out before sealing the wag bag seems to significantly reduce the inflation problem. Also, if you're out for long times, you can check it once a day or two and let out the gas if need be. It doesn't seem like a problem if you're aware of that possibility.

I don't know if the chewing by critters is a problem, but I think that next time I'll be sure to bring an extra plastic bag in case that happens. However, I've kept my wag bag in a zippered compartment in my pack during 2 four-day trips in July without any problem.

The real question: Will the trail be in better condition without the toilets than with them?

My personal opinion - based on experience with what is perhaps wrongly called "The LA mentality" - is that it without a Plan B for those who chose not to comply, conditions by next Sep will be much worse.

Calling the Whitney climb a wilderness experience is ridiculous. It is more like a slow day at Disneyland.

The Whitney officials have to face reality - many of the Whitney visitors will not, regardless of stated rules - play by those rules. If one assumes that statement is correct, the next question is: Given a certain level of non-compliance, what real world steps can be taken to protect the Whitney environment?

Removal of the toilets and relying on personal initiative is a great theory, but unfortunately, I'm afraid this summer will show the difference between theory and reality.

Yes, cost has to be considered. But so does the real world consequences of non-compliance. What happens if 10% of the folks say the hell with it? Or even 5%? How much crap and TP are we talking about? What is the plan for getting it out? Are toilets a cheaper alternative in the long run? Does anyone in the FS have the numbers?

The final question: How does the FS plan to address the hundreds - or even thousands of pounds of waste that will actually be deposited and left on Whitney during this summer - and every summer - by thosewho will not adhere to the rules?

Forget serial numbers - DNA samples of everyone who enters the wilderness!!!!! (tongue firmly planted in cheek to prevent the q-tip swab from being used to sample my dna)

Fred definitely hit on something. And it could lead to a new TV series, Mt. Whitney CSI.

And just like checking a bullet for scratches and matching it to a gun barrel, they could check...... uh, never mind.

This is a topic with lots of room for various types of humor, but there are points.
Removing the toilets will help with the "CONCENTRATION" of odors near popular campsites. Those toidies stank as do similar installations in other areas. As for "wag bags", some people (probably many more than will admit to it in public" are going to be less than thrilled with the concept, particularly on long trips...imagine doing the length of the John Muir trails and the immense pack of reeking ordure you would end up with. These people will sneak off trail and do their business as campers and hikers always have since before "solar toilets" were invented.
" In days of old when knights were bold and toilets weren't invented, they did their load upon the road and walked on quite contented".
Human nature and all that, plus the human animal's preference for post prandial, and early morning rising, defecation, generally argue for some sort of facilities near campgrounds. It is a shame that the Forest Service's budgetary contraints won't allow the periodic helicopter removal of Honey Buckets from places like Trail camp. Though some folks may be good sports, many will not...maybe in the future the "Golden Trout Wilderness will come to be known as the "Eyeless Brown Trout wilderness".
Like many ideas, the "Wag Bag" idea is one that may sound better in principle than will prove to be the case in reality.

Adrian

Last summer, while on a maintenance crew on the Whitney Trail, one of the Rangers asked us to help move the large receptacles at Trail Camp and Outpost Camp. I’m ashamed to admit that I groused about it to the rest of the crew - I didn’t think it was “our job”. A number of times that day I watched the Rangers pick up used wag bags without complaint. Then the echoes of a Bob R. post on this board came into my head about how he’d carried a broken one to the trailhead. For the rest of the trip I made it a point to pick up the d*** things but I have to confess I still feel guilt about first thinking that this wasn’t a job for me because I was somehow ‘better’ and this job belonged to ‘someone else’. In fact, this is a shared responsibility.

That said, as much as I admire those gentler spirits whose love of the place naturally leads them to serve without hesitation, I have no patience for the antisocial 10%, whose rights we’re always supposed to take into account. In many places in the world they have places to store these sociopaths. These places are known as “jails”. Some other techniques that tend to work with the cretins are ‘huge fines’. But concern for, or tolerance for, or acceptance of someone’s right to bad behavior – none from me, thank you.

Gregf,

You speak of huge fines but when it comes to it your would need a sworn ranger every every 10' to get total compliance.

The only way a mandatory pack it out program will work is through voluntary compliance because the forest service cannot do much about getting folks to comply to this regulation if they don't want to.

I'd like to know the metric for what is success. Obviously, a student from University of Montana conducting a survey isn't going to cut it.

The permit fee for the Main Trail is $15. Each day during the high season up to 160 people begin to hike the Main Trail, making the gross income $2,400 daily.

What if the fee were increased by, say, $10 per hiker? That would mean an extra $1,600 daily during high season and, I suppose, over $200,000 extra each year.

Now let's suppose all of that extra money were devoted to constructing and maintaining toilet facilities that were technologically better than the ones that have been removed.

Not enough money for that, you say? Then make the increase $20 per hiker and end up with $400,000 annually for the toilets.

At some dollar amount you would be able to have an ecologically successful system that is frequently and well maintained. And, if the additional fee were high enough, you likely would dissuade from hiking at all precisely those people who have the worst trail ethic in terms of hygiene.

(Each year, there could be a cap on this supplemental fee for frequent hikers such as Bob R. and Richard P.)