Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Waste Management on Whitney

got this e-mail, today

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December 15, 2006
To those interested in Mt. Whitney Waste Management:

Over the last four years we considered an Environmental Assessment for human waste management along the Mt. Whitney Trail in the John Muir Wilderness. I apologize for the length of time this planning effort has taken, although I now believe that the Whitney climbers have helped us find a long term solution.

For years climbers have left their human waste in two toilets located at camps along the upper reaches of the Whitney Trail. Rangers were forced to utilize helicopters each year to remove 4000 pounds of waste. This use of motorized equipment and the presence of toilet buildings compromised the wilderness setting.

As you may recall, in 2002 we discussed the need to replace the two toilets at Outpost and Trail Camps. In 2004, we initiated a voluntary pack-out program by providing Wag Bags and disposal receptacles. Rangers monitored for proper disposal of the kits, water quality, and waste weight. In 2005, a University of Montana student conducted a visitor survey to determine perceptions of the pack-out program. Public response to the program has been very positive. The vast majority of Whitney climbers said they were prepared to help solve this problem.

This season, Whitney climbers packed over 3600 pounds of their human waste to the trailhead. With the success of this pack out waste program, we now have a safe and sanitary way for each individual to deal with their own waste.

Two weeks ago, Forest Service rangers removed the toilet at Outpost Camp. Earlier in the summer, Park Service rangers removed the toilet near the summit. Forest Service rangers plan to remove the Trail Camp toilet in 2007 and will require all climbers to pack their waste to the trailhead. We will continue to monitor for water quality, compliance, and resource impacts. We will have rangers pick up any waste left along the trail.

I am encouraged by the Whitney climbers’ response over the last three seasons and feel that this is the best way to manage waste along the Whitney Trail. Thank you for your continued interest in the Inyo National Forest.

Sincerely,

/s/ Garry Oye
Garry Oye
DISTRICT RANGER

Not surprising but my guess short sighted due to the number of newbies who utilize this trail.

What I do find interest is Grand Canyon National Park has seemed to find a way to make their solar latrine work on their Corridor Trails. The main difference seems to be GCNP wants to make it work whereas as the Inyo National Forest and Mr. Oye, in particular, do not.

wbt, you can't compare Whitney to GC. There is a completely different environment and soil conditions in GC, both more conducive to waste decomposition than at Whitney.

Steve, I agree with you.

What I find outrageous is that these toilets cost something like $300,000 each, and did not work. Was it not reasonable to evaluate whether they would work in that environment, before flushing that amount of money, along with the helicopter runs which cost a fortune, away?

However, that was not Mr. Oye's decision, it predated him.

Mr Oye says in his email "We will have rangers pick up any waste left along the trail."

I really hope he does not use this sentence in future correspondence or on the information issued with the permits. I suspect there are people who will translate this to "I can just leave my trash (or wag bag) here and someone else will clean up later". Shouldn't he be taking every opportunity to remind all of us to 'leave no trace'?

Well, Oye works for the USFS, not the Pentagon. I got the letter because I was involved in the commenting on the process. I think the FS has the obligation to disclose what the plan is supposed to be....and hope is not a plan. Perhaps I'm at fault for passing the information on from an e-mail to stakeholders interested in the process, but that's my decision.

I can't conceive that sentence would be on a permit info sheet, but the FS plan needs to be clear, and it needs to be disclosed to those interested.

Sure I can compare the MMWT to the Corridor Trails in GCNP in this respect, the park service wants to make this system work and Mr. Oye from the time he got here from Mt. Shasta did not want to make the Mt. Whitney system to work. Also, both trails see an enormous amounts of neophyte traffic, therefore, we have large population of people who are not use to nor want to get used to pack it out.

My feeling is this will degrade conditions on the main trail and has convinced me I do not want to camp or take water from most convenient sources along the MMWT during the prime time quota period.

My guess is the compliance to pack it out will ~80%, which is will cause problems.

Wow the human race acting right!
About time we took action for ourselves. At least now it will not look like that other dump of a mountain called EVEREST. Jeez Love the other countries its all about the MONEY.

So, in the past the F.S. used helicopters to remove 4,000 lbs of waste. This year hikers packed out 3,600 lbs of waste. What happened to the other 400 lbs?

I also found this sentence funny: "This use of motorized equipment and the presence of toilet buildings compromised the wilderness setting." Calling a trail with 50 or more users a day a wilderness setting is really not accurate.

I’ve used the Wag Bag’s and felt they worked pretty well (much better than the ridiculous home-made paper sandwich bag and kitty litter handed out by rangers on Shasta and Olympus). However, my biggest concern is that while the vast majority of people will do the right thing, I believe a sizeable portion will not and as a result, we will see more nasty waste and garbage along the trail.

Has the F.S. thought of replacing the solar toilets with some type of Wag Bag depository at the two camps (Mt. Olympus has one)? After spending a fair amount of time in the Alps, and seeing how the Swiss, French, Italians and Austrians do things, I don’t buy the argument of helicopters being too expensive to haul out waste.

I personally do not believe that as many people will pack it out as they hope. So I am sure this will be a continual problem and discussion for years to come.

Jul 2005 there were very convenient toilet seats for Wag Bag use and no filled Wag Bags were left at Trail Camp.
Jul 2006 there weren't any toilet seats for Wag Bag use and some filled Wag Bags were left at Trail Camp.

I don't know if there was a connection, but anyhow, what happened to the toilet seats for Wag Bag use?

[Oh my gosh. The message board software automatically turned my :) into a ]

Camping Tip:

Be careful when picking up rocks to secure your tent. Earlier this year I got my gloves all muddy when picking up some rocks at Outpost Camp. Then I realized it wasn't mud.

-Rick

Hi I gave a talk several weeks ago about the toilets and the effort that was required to keep them working.They failed every August,the demand and the user not taking care of the liquid first would keep the fecal waste wet before it could compost TRASH WAS ALWAYS IN THE VAULTS and toilet paper was put in the vault.
Several years ago people were ask if they would bring out the waste . many people did,more than bags for the season allotment the next season the same responce, the more bags handed out the more waste people carried down.
We have heard the story of the new hikers not willing to carry out the waste ,but what we hear is some of the return hikers not liking the change that now they need to remove their own waste, and will find fault with any effort to make the waste removal work.
The 400 pound from last season was flown out, the rangers have picked up some wag bags but when the toilets were open and full of **** many people would go outside the structures and the rangers cleaned that also.
On my hikes I see less paper and waste now than in years past, It's the hikers that make the area what it is and the large majority are committed to keeping the area clean.
I see a very high carryout rate, and I would expect the 2% group that fails to figure out the day of the week not to comply and others will pickup their load.
Think of coming into trail camp looking to trailcrest and not seeing that large structure and that blast of foul odor drifting down the canyon, but then again where are those people that always camped next to the toilet going to camp? Thats what we should focus on, the waste problem is a part of the past now . But If I offer any option it would be to have the hikers carry down a part of the trailcamp bathroom for a keepsake like Bob R suggested. Thanks Doug

Bob,

Everyone wants what is best here. I'm not sure this is it, especially when this trail goes mandatory pack it out 2007 with no back up for the squeamish.

I got a copy of Mr. Oye's letter and I had problems with parts of it based on past statements. One being having fs personnel cleaning up the latrines, now he doesn't seem to have a problem with the same people picking WAG bags along the trail.

Many of us saw this coming when LA Times published and interview with Mr. Oye ~4 years ago.

The biggest problem with the WAG bags, as I see it, is the odor. Fear of leakage can be minimized by a well-designed system that people can have confidence in. The added weight to carry should bother only lightweight enthusiasts, where a pound or two is a significant percentage of pack weight. Using a bag should be a non-issue: What's the difference between (a) crapping on the bare ground, and (b) first spreading out a plastic bag beneath your fecal dispenser?

But the odor. In spite of always following the directions—making sure to use sufficient water, carefully sealing the bag(s), etc.—I rarely bring down a bag that doesn't smell. People have told me they can always tell by smell when they meet a ranger who has been out more than a day. I don't know about the "always" part, but I've noticed that too.

So, I think improving the design is called for. Better yet, provide depositories, as mentioned above.

I haven't been as high as Trail Camp during the quota season since 2004. At that time the FS had erected a privacy area adjacent to solar latrine. In reading this thread it no longer exists, I guess in keeping to this is a "Wilderness" area.

I have one pertinent question...How are people, especially women, going to have any kind of privacy at Trail Camp consider there will be upwards to 100 people there, not including day hikers passing through?

Hey Bob,
How about poop tubes? I heard Dave Miles mention this in one of the CLMRG lectures this summer. What he described is the same thing I made about 15 years ago but for the purpose of storing rolled maps. What you do is you take a piece of ABS pipe or PVC if you can find one fat enough. You glue a cap on one end and on the other end you glue a fitting that will accept a threaded cap. It's not light but I think it would work better than a wag bag. You could make it in whatever length you want.

Rafael...

"fecal dispensor" ... lol

-Rick

All of this discussion is an argument for dayhiking the peak. Take care of business at the trailhead and you are good for 24 hours. It works for me.

If too many people are leaving their Wag Bags on the mountain, just as rangers make spot checks for permits, they could make spot checks for Wag Bags of people headed down. Then cite them if they don't have their wag bag. If they honestly lost it, they could make a detailed written statement of how they lost it when they mail in their fine and their money might be returned. All that hassle should be a good deterrent.