Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board WATER PURIFICATION

QUESTION: IS THE QUALITY OF THE WATER SO POOR THAT IODINE TABLETS ARE RECOMMENDED? I WAS INTENDING ON BRINGING MY MSR PURIFICATION PUMP AND THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH. WHAT IS EVERYONE'S THOUGHT ON THIS TOPIC?

Much has been said about this subject over the last year or so.

Bob R.'s research shows that much of the water is actually clean enough to drink with a small giardia risk. He says if you actually get sick you are more likely infected by someone in your group...more then the water. This is because up in the mountains sometimes we don't wash our hands as often as we should.

Water filters are fine and I still like to use mine. Using a water filter also takes dirt and bugs out of the water.

Iodine alone is not totally foolproof since it does not kill the crypto sporidium spores.

Boiling water for 5 minutes also kills everything, but leaves the water tasting flat and doesn't get rid of bugs and dirt.

The chance of contacting anything in our Sierra is virtually zero. Personal Hygiene presents a much greater danger than anything else. Carry what you will; it is fun to play with all the toys, but.....I saw the light and I relegated my filter into my camping-gear history treasure box- alongside of the 5 pound tents, Heavy knives, 3 pound bear cans, and canteens. It all still works, but even at the worst polluted areas (Trail Crest camp at Whitney for example ), you would have to drink 50 gallons to even have a 20% chance of contacting anything that could hurt you. Thus, there is no need to carry anything. You can't filter out what is not there to start with. Sierra water is fine the way it is. There has never been one documented case of anyone contacting anything (Giardia, etc ) that is attributable to any free-flowing water supply in the Sierra. Nothing...Nada.. Zip. Get the picture? The City of San Francisco gets its water from the Sierra, and does not filter it at all. It is all hype to separate us from our hard earned camping dollars.

I carry and use a First Need filter pump. On the Whitney trail, and especially at Trail Camp, I'd be more worried about e. coli than giardia, that from careless humans.

I trust my First Need here in the midwest where agricultural pollution (i.e. cow dung) is a very real issue in many streams. Hasn't let me down yet...

Fifteen years ago, I'd take water straight out of many free-flowing Sierra stream, outside of high-traffic areas like the Whitney zone, Yosemite, etc. These days, I'm a lot more paranoid and trust fresh snowmelt above about 12,000' and that sparingly. Too many careless hikers and climbers around, pure and simple.

All responsible government agencies highly recommend treating the water. Decades ago, the USFS refused to endorse filters. So, I save my money and just boil, the only sure way. Now an easy part of my camping routine. While I was never diagnosed, I came down with symptoms characteristic of Giardia after three separate backpack trips, some in the Sierra. The cure, Flagyl, worked.

Bob R refers only to Giardia in his paper. There are many other diseases/parasites you can get from drinking impure water, e.coli being one of them. In third world countries, cholera, hepatitis, and severe diarrhea are common. Similar sanitation, with raw sewage/human waste going straight into the water sources, albeit by millions, not thousands.

To be safe, treat the water. Getting a parasite or otherwise ill is NOT WORTH IT! I know many climbers who seem to be immune from sickness by stream water. I used to be the same way until I got the runs, terribly. No question that it came from my backpacking. Lost work time, medical expense, unless you are not working, are all a real pain. Then come the complications. Pills are carcinogenic, so I worried about cancer. That ran me worse than the parasites. Stomach and lower g.i. pains, that wouldn't go away. I was stuck with this for years.

I'll do the peaks as day hikes and carry all my water, even if it means toting 16 pounds of water (two gallons). My last backpack, I left out the stove and carried lots of diet soda. Canned food, too. Although this was a short distance to camp. I doubt I'll ever do Whitney again, other than as a day hike. I'm in shape, so why take discomfort and risk, in addition to the permit fees and hassle?

But for the USFS to install faucets with clean water is a great idea. Other trails have them (also in wilderness). It's a slam dunk health and welfare issue. Just too many users!

A friend sent me this (edited):

"I just discovered an interesting web site: http://www.sierranevadawild.gov . As you will see, it is sponsored by the NPS, NFS, and BLM ... and is "The official government source for backcountry trip planning in Sierra Nevada Parks, Forests, and Public Lands." Click on the link "Learn." There are 7 topics here, including one which has a link to the paper by Bob R. On the subject of whether the water is safe to drink, they say to read the articles and make up your own mind.

Actually, this will be updated soon, because some professors from UC Davis have been doing studies on E. coli, etc., up in the Sierra. (Advance notice: They found some, but not enough to be of concern. The bottom line is unchanged.)"

4X, what pills are you talking about that cause cancer?

You mention many parasites from other countries: so true. However, not in the Sierra. What you can get in other countries is irrelevant.

I admire your lugging of water and canned food and beverage.

Perhaps while they are doing construction of the pipes for the water, they can add escalators, too?

While I do not doubt the studies and stories about water quality, I will note that the pond/water source at Trail Camp is a pretty shallow body of water and it is used as both a drinking water source, cooking water source and as both swimming pool and bathtub. What that means is whatever you want it to mean.

4X, what pills are you talking about that cause cancer?

Ken, I was advised by a doctor associate that reading from the PDR (or what it's called, a reference about every pill ever made), Flagyl is a cancer causer. BTW, Iodine isn't very good for your consumption, either.

I've tried almost everything, except for filters. One couple I went on a backpack trip with broke their $300 water filter. Stuck with no filtering the rest of the trip. I forgot what they did exactly, with no back-up filter or iodine crystals/pills. That'd cause me to immediately pack out.

You mention many parasites from other countries: so true. However, not in the Sierra. What you can get in other countries is irrelevant.

It is rather relevant what goes on in third world countries. Many hikers are foreign travelers, as well. They can bring back the diseases and spread them in the water of the Sierra. Then from poor sanitation in some restaurants, diners can get infected or ill, then also spread the parasites into the Sierra. And if they have poor sanitation habits, too, they can spread germs and parasites in other places than the Sierra.

And yes, I lug loads to avoid getting sick--it's that bad when you come down with something. Course, I like backpacking, and often I need the conditioning for serious winter trips, for instance, when so much more gear needs to be carried. It's worked out O.K. I usually get my peaks, and seldom ever turn back due to the pack weight.

About the combined agency website, we all are going to be packing out our poop for a reason. Fecal contamination is to be avoided, and that's for such disease. We all go to the mountains to get healthy, not ill!

Drink up if you want. I filter. It's so easy why risk it? A good friend of mine got giardia from a Sierra stream near Sonora and battled it for 2 years and it was very serious and highly impacted his life. He happens to be a scientist for a drug research company and worked very closely with his doctors to finally cure it.

Anyone that spends time in the Sierra knows about cattle. Youy never know what is upstream. True at high elevation it is not as big a risk but in a high use area it is a gamble not to treat water.

Go eat raw hamburger all day if you want. The risk of e coli is extremely low. Why bother cooking it? It's your choice.

My 2-cents:

I've drunk boiled; filtered; iodined; and untreated water at different times.

But the guide I went with on the MR a couple of years ago was so against drinking any water along the MR, that he carried all of his [personal drinking water] along on him.

Although, for community dinner, he did boil water from UBSL ... but geez, he boiled it forever, it seemed.

But I dunno ... I run into b'packers in the Sierras that drink right from springs as they go ... at least in more remote areas ...

I'd wonder what's been in the water along the Whitney main trail ...

Don't forget, "Andreas" (from some rather loftily composed posts a few weeks ago) claims he normally bathes in Lone Pine Lake ...

Well, all satire aside, I admit, I have seen folks sometimes washing in the lake on a warm day ... if not their hands .. their feet ...

NB

"You mention many parasites from other countries: so true. However, not in the Sierra. What you can get in other countries is irrelevant.

It is rather relevant what goes on in third world countries. Many hikers are foreign travelers, as well. They can bring back the diseases and spread them in the water of the Sierra. Then from poor sanitation in some restaurants, diners can get infected or ill, then also spread the parasites into the Sierra. And if they have poor sanitation habits, too, they can spread germs and parasites in other places than the Sierra."
=============

while my temptation is to bash you for pasting all non-americans as diseased, I'll simply say that in spite of all these unwashed hordes invading our shores, NONE of these dreaded parasites has ever been found in America, anywhere.

The reason for that is that most parasites require intermediate hosts to survive, which are plants or animals that do not live in the US. Also, frequently, climate conditions are not conducive to such things living. Note that most of the bad thing are found in the tropics. Most such things do not like snow and ice.

So, if you want to protect yourself from things that do not exist here, and are not a danger here, fine. I'm for freedom of choice. However, it is unreasonable to advocate that people protect themselves unreasonably.
=====================
"Drink up if you want. I filter. It's so easy why risk it? A good friend of mine got giardia from a Sierra stream near Sonora and battled it for 2 years and it was very serious and highly impacted his life. He happens to be a scientist for a drug research company and worked very closely with his doctors to finally cure it."

That is a factual mis-statement. Your good friend MAY, in fact, have gotten Giardia while in the Sierra. However, there is no way of knowing the source of the Giardia. As you know, from having read Bob R's paper, the probable source is apparent. Additionally, inasmuch as about 10% of Americans are asymptomatic carriers, he could easily have had it before, and it wasn't detected until he got sick.

I find it is much better to look at the research on the issue, rather than quote friends infected by space aliens.
======================
"Anyone that spends time in the Sierra knows about cattle. Youy never know what is upstream. True at high elevation it is not as big a risk but in a high use area it is a gamble not to treat water."

Odd, never seen any cattle on the Whitney trail.
Guess we should protect ourselves from the theoretical cattle, though, in case the mother ship beams some down, eh?

You talk about a gamble, as though there are decision that involve no risk in life. There is significant risk in driving to the trailhead, and that is risk of death. Why do we accept that? Because we believe that the risk is SMALL. So logic tells us that we accept small risks, and I simply advocate that one should take a look at what a risk actually is, before embarking on a course of action that may, indeed, be futile.
==================
"Ken, I was advised by a doctor associate that reading from the PDR (or what it's called, a reference about every pill ever made), Flagyl is a cancer causer. BTW, Iodine isn't very good for your consumption, either."

Actually what the package insert says, is that in rats and mice, in very high doses, administered over the lifetime of the animals, there is an increase in some cancers. Interestingly, in Hamsters, which are closer to us than rats, there is no such effect. This drug has been in use for decades, and there has been no problems that have shown up of this nature, at all. It is generic, and cheap, so no drug company has any reason to be pushing it, there's no real money to be made.
The original manufacturer's package insert:
http://www.pfizer.com/download/uspi_flagyl_375.pdf
==================

However, the main point I'd make is there there is outstanding information available....for example, how the water along the Whitney trail tested out, and to debate the issue without reading what is written seems futile, to me.

I have read the Bob R. article and I loved what it said...a big relief actually.

I thought the original question was if you should use Iodine in addition to a filter.

I would personally think that is unneccessary and overkill, especially in the Whitney area.

I usually bring a filter since it cleans out debris (dirt, bugs and stuff) from the water, in addition to possible pathogens.

I have also drank freely from a "smart" water source based on the Bob R. information without any guilt...realizing it is probably safe, when I wasn't carrying the water filter.

"Flagyl is a cancer causer" is an overstatement and most likely wrong as it applies to humans. Yes it did show tumorigenisis at very high doses in rats and mice; it did not show such activity in hamsters. No demonstrated evidence in humans. The FDA as well as international regulatory authorities watch it carefully.

When I was treated, I was advised not to drink that contaminated or infected water again. The cure, Flagyl, is not to be abused by popping them a lot. The doctor's reference was clearly said to me that it is "carcinogenic." The level of this was not stated. What the drug company says, is fine, but then they're selling the pills. Not unlike cigarette companies, by some. I believe hikers shouldn't think the cure is so simple and safe that caution need not be exercised.

The vector agents are not expunged from Sierra water by each winter freeze. They appear again every spring. Giardia is an extremely hardy parasite, and it is very common overseas, I'm told.

The point of these warnings is to keep you well and happy. Each to your own, once you know the facts, but I personally have had such a negative experience, I'm passing this on to save others the misery and pain.

I've been boiling now for decades, and never had the problem again. If the USFS and all decide to give hikers a choice, without informing people of the malaise and other ill effects, that's their business, now, I guess. I even boil my home drinking water as some reports suggest that may help consumption safety. That did stop some symptoms that I've been having recently. But then, I do ingest drops of unboiled water by my faucet washing of pans, utensils, dishes and cups.

So, for backpacking, I'd say better your back, for what water you'd best carry, than your stomach!