Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Rescue - Who Pays?

Ran accros the following article and thought it might add to the discussion. <a href="http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D8MHENIG1.html">Response to dead driver and lost climbers

msmith - great post - yet another facet: the law.

Add to that facet: would charging for rescue imply a warranty and create a liability for the governmental unit? Lawyers?

Intresting thread.
My son and I were mountain biking along a trail that cuts through a Southern California city. My son was going down a steep hill, inadvertantly looked back to see where I was, and at that instant hit a rock at just the right angle to launch him off the bike and into the air. He hit the ground and was knocked out cold (he was wearing a helmet - it cracked and had pieces of gravel actually embedded into it from the impact.) A passerby say this happen and called 911. The fire department responded and he was transported to the hospital in a ambulance. I received a bill from both the Fire Department and the Ambulance Service.
I sent them to my insurance provider who paid them. I never thought twice about it until I read this thread. I was just glad he was OK.

without going into any detail, I will tell you that variations on what has been said in this thread have been and are continuing to be discussed within different parts of the park service (and probably elsewhere that I don't know about). Like here, there are good arguments on both sides of this debate and no real consensus. With park budgets, particularly back country budgets, getting cut and increasing amounts of adventure travel increasing demands, it is forcing some tough decisions. When dollars go to rescue people, there are other things that don't get funded. At some point, I would not be surprised to see some charges for rescues in certain situations. If this board is representative, some people will object and others will be ok with it. Not unlike any other type of government regulation.

I've gone back over the thread and other posts and I may have missed something - could someone clarify, please.

Volunteer effort is a lot of the "expenditure", and thanks for those good people. The Park Service and other federal agencies bear some cost. But I thought a lot of "local" cost was also incurred. Somewhere on the board the mention of the sheriff taking the volunteers to dinner afterwards - that would imply county or city involvement and expense.

The thread is "Who pays?". Well, who pays? 10% feds / 90% county? Some other proportion?

What about Whitney? Isn't that a county helicopter?

Greg, depends upon which helicopter is available, I'd think.

Something that BobR mentioned to me on one occasion that I found both interesting and ironic:

When a SAR is successful, and people are rescued, they are usually thankful and.....are usually never heard from again.

When the SAR turns into a recovery, the family is virtually always thankful, and there are numberous cases of those folks donating money to the volunteers for years afterwards.

*cough* a bit windy--sorry about the rant/lecture folks--I don't say beans than that comes out-yikes-you'd think I knew what I was talkin' about-Hah!

SteveC--apologies--I didn't see your post....AlanK's last one would have covered it for me. Why don't we just send the bills to RP and BobR---afterall by "squatter's rights" it is their property, so...........hahaha---just kidding guys. Thanks for the TR's--one of these days I'll run into you up there.

Eddy--I agree with you about personal responsibility and I don't like throwing money away either. In fact I just got a reminder from my tax guy yesterday.

Bob K.--case by case makes sense--the Cali guy heading for the cape? Good question? If you're doing something with an extremely high risk factor you'd think a guy would have his own exit plan.

gregf-- We pay--CA taxpayers (generally speaking--though it's not that easy either--the FED gov gets involved, etc.)----although the SAR people get left out of the money loop---I read here ( http://www.highsierratopix.com/community...4c90d60851286c9) that counties bill each other for larger SAR's. So if Joe Malibu needs a rescue, Inyo would charge his county (Inyo doesn't have to get stuck with the bill). Greg, I'm shootin' from the hip for the most part ---there is info on the net or you could call the Inyo County sheriff and see what he says. I agree Inyo County is relatively poor and should not be solely responsible (and from what I've read they don't have to be). The last post on the above link is gdurkee whose been a SEKI backcountry ranger for a long time, so he's got first hand experience. For the last rescue on Whitney they used a CHP helicopter. Check out the pdf posted on pg.1 of the survival thread if you're interested about the conflicts of charging for rescues and getting lawyers involved. Lotta false summits and no easy anwsers. Have a good year people.

Ken's recollection of what I said is accurate. Here's my thinking on it:

When we bring someone out alive, the family and friends are always elated. They are extremely and profusely thankful, as you would expect. But a few days later, their lives are back to normal. It was merely a close call. They forget.

When we recover a body, they are still very thankful. Were it not for the SAR team, their loved one's remains would stay up there: exposed to animals, to the elements, etc. Those thoughts are not pleasant. If one thinks of "closure," they don't have it. But by bringing the body out for a proper burial, they can get that sense of closure. However, their lives never go back to normal, because that person is gone forever. So they remember the circumstances and they remember what we did for them.

I'm not saying things always work this way; I'm just saying this makes some sense to me.

In 1976 CLMRG found and recovered the body of a young man, in the Sierra west of Bishop. His mother gave us a generous donation at the time, the largest we had ever received. And she continued it yearly. We still receive that annual check—well into four digits—thirty years later.

I estimate that we receive a "thank you" donation from the victim / family / friends about once in every 20 or 30 SAR operations, which I find a little surprising.

On another subject, this postmortem on the Kim search last month is interesting: <a href=http://www.oregonlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/11663313078330.xml?oregonian?lctop&coll=7&thispage=1>Kim search</a>

Bob, that was a fascinating story in the Oregonian. I'm very interested in your take: It is clear that there was a major screw-up by the "professionals", particularly the SAR coordinator, who was way above her head.

Is your experience that this sort of thing (admin confusion) is the norm, or quite the exception?

I remember in your mention of participation of the Ali search, that I was astonished by the delays in getting people into the field, wasting hours of daylight, while people "met". I'm sure as an outsider that my understanding is lacking a variety of elements.

Considering the vast amounts of time that VOLUNTEERS put into training, I cannot fathom that people with professional SAR responsibilities don't get significant training so as to know what to do. And why would they appoint someone with no command experience for such a critical position.

<sigh>

Ken, I will not comment in print. Suffice to say, the wilderness SAR scene is a lot different from what it used to be. A lot.

Either the Seattle Time or PI had an article on the Mt Hood climbing tragedy in the last day or two. It was mostly about the "fast and light" approach and its implications when things go wrong but how it may be safer if things go right. But there was a small comment about rescue costs and also the fact about charging for such things and an even smaller reference to FIRE DEPT cost recovery and something I was not aware of PRIVATE FIRE PROTECTION but of the public and it referenced ARIZONA.

I just did a quick google and found this:

http://www.reason.org/ps152.html

I gather from this, that it is not new. I guess it is interesting but I flinch at taking this type of service private. But maybe that is just me. Sounds as if it works. Did not read the whole thing yet. I still think distributing costs for such services over a community is reasonable.

The fire protection case that Fred mentioned could be easily included in a homeowner's fire insurance policy. So the costs would still in effect be distributed over a community.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be an existing insurance that people already have that could appropriately include SAR costs. On second thought maybe it could be included in health insurance, kind of similar to ambulances, especially if there is an injury.

Since this topic seems to keep getting attention, how about some good news. Although her survival is probably not the kind of record most people would like to claim, this is a woman I want to hike with!
<a href="http://news.bostonherald.com/national/view.bg?articleid=177255&srvc=art">woman found alive in New Mexico

I'm very happy that the woman was found and is ok. She sure is tough. But someone you'd want to hike with? Here are some quotes from the LA Times article on her rescue. Ths sounds like a tragedy waiting to happen.

It's unclear how much backpacking experience Dorn had. Albert Kottke, who has been hiking in the wilderness for nearly a decade, said she didn't seem prepared for emergencies or extreme weather.

"There was no stove that we could see. She was dressed in waffle-pattern cotton long underwear, which got wet, so it wasn't keeping in any heat," he said. "The tent was this tiny little bright-blue-and-teal kids tent, without any decent rain or wind protection.

"At least she had a sleeping bag and a blanket."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-hiker16jan16,0,6955200.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Hi MY GOSH IF SHE HAD THAT FANCY STUFF SHE COULD DO EVEREST!!!! I read the story and the elements that stood out, she made choices that would not make her conditions worse. Three weeks and not giving up shows what the mind body /thing can do.
We know a lady that comes every year and would be the last person that you would expect to make the summit each year she climbs various mountains in the area and spends at least one night on the summit , about 15 years ago she ask how to go up the mountaineers route I showed her the pictures and a quick route layout and she said she would try it ,three days later she came back and told Earlene it worked and would see us next year. I strongly believe that if one can control the bloated ego the body can take you alot of places. Doug

Doug, you really come up with some classic quotes. This is one of the best that I've read from you.

Doug, I had much the same reaction. I thought she showed remarkable judgement, and made exactly the right decisions in the field.

Regardless of her preparedness, equipment or experience, she managed to survive a long time in bad conditions. To paraphrase Doug - determination can play a big part in the outcome. And yeah, I'd prefer to hike with someone that was committed to coming out alive, despite any problems.

Hi Ok this will be my last rant about gear,the real story is she had one of those new stove everyone is talking about but the lighter part didn't work and when it got cold, wouldn't put out enough heat , she had 50 days of those meals that come in a sack so no pot was needed but since the water would not get hot they found 38 open bags re hydrating, no she didn't have a backup stove that roars like a lion. On her last trip again in the cold the o ring was so cold it allowed fuel to blow all over her nice tent and burnt it to plastic refuge, no not that stove where they brazed the feet on and gave you a wrench to tighten the leaks around the valve evey few minutes.She had one of those bivy sacks but found that the warning lable rubbed her toes when she tried to sleep and the zipper was broke so she couldn't close it all the way. Unlike the hunter down in San Diego she refrained from a little signal fire but keep inversing way points but the river just wouldn't listen.
I praise the brothers that found her but I think maybe I would have left my brother with her, he just argues any way when we get lost. And one time he dropped me off at a point along a trail in Arkansas and said he would pick me up at the end 14 miles later, I knew alot about chiggers and hiking in a tree canopy along a river that ran as fast as a hicup when we joined back up.

My brother was a trail builder near where the lady was stranded, he and another guy were caught in a blizard and without food for some days he feels the only reason they made it out was they had horses and used the horses to break trail for 9 miles rotating the horses when they needed and holding on to the tail of the lead horse, that was 1965 , he moved to California and got an indoor job.He has spend the rest of his life helping people and has been on the National News several times. Thanks Doug