Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Need advice on first time randonee ski setup

Hi all,

My girlfriend and I have been into mountaineering for years and are also very casual downhill skiers. We're looking to step our mountain adventures up a notch by getting into randonee skiing. The thought of one day doing a ski traverse of the Sierra or just all the other places that will open up to us through ski just tickles our fancy.

Anyway, we don't much familiarity with the different ski brands, let alone all the various considerations involving randonee. We're also no loner the poor souls we once were where we'd get into a new sport and just get the cheapest gear available- we know better, so we'd rather spend what we need to to get a good setup the first time, rather than get into it for a year on cheap stuff and then immediately want to upgrade.

I'm looking for recommendations on brands/models and advice on what to look for and consider in getting a first timer randonee setup. We're looking for something that will supplement our mountaineering experience (e.g., light weight, comfortable, quality) as well as something we can take to the downhill ski slopes the small handful of times a year we do that. We're not necessarily looking for the premo setup, but also not looking to skimp on what we truly need just in favor or something cheap. Also looking to take advantage of any season-end sales that may be going on.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!
Jason

I'm excited and bummed at the same time that so many people in CA are figuring out that randonnee skiing is awesome! The alpine countries have been ahead of us in this respect for a long time.

Here's my response to a similar thread on SP:

Skis should be chosen based on intended use and place of use. This is obvious, but it's easy to get quagmired in marketing nonsense, so do think about it. For example, if you want to replace your snowshoes with skis (i.e., you're mostly a mountaineer or ice climber), it's extremely convenient to be able to skin in with your normal climbing boots. You'll want the Silvretta 500's. If you live in Norway (broad, open, not much brush), you can get away with long skis. If you live near the Cascades, where it's brushy in the lower elevations and where you might use your skis on glaciers, shorter, fatter skis are the way to go. Shorter skis are better for mountaineering, but they should be fat enough to support a heavy pack.

On the other hand, if you plan long BC tours (e.g., Haute Route or High Sierra Traverse) where the emphasis is on covering large distances, get a light setup. Dynafit wins. Get fairly fat skis if you expect deep, unconsolidated snow and heavy packs. If you ski in one of the alpine countries, you can get away with smaller skis because you will have much, much less on your back; we "backward" Americans often need bigger ones because we don't have a great hut infrastructure and consequently carry a lot of weight on tours.

The correct choices for the two situations above are easy and everyone agrees on them. The discussions and disagreement are about what's best suited to the sort of skiing which is done predominantly for the downhill part, like when you go out for corn or powder. The answers are complicated and honestly not worth the trouble for most of us. If you want to do extreme stuff, it would probably help to get specialized gear, but many people use a solid touring setup for all of their backcountry skiing.

End quote. It sounds like you want a relatively soft (3 buckle) boot with a light ski and binding. I strongly recommend Dynafit bindings as possibly the coolest thing ever (many others will corroborate the sentiment). Dynafit even has a line of pre-drilled skis these days, so you can do what used to be a complex mount at home with minimal tools.

San Diego has a BC ski shop, apparently, if you want to try boots on before you buy (norpine.com). If you're not close to SD, use backcountry.com to order several pairs; you can ship the ones you don't want back to them with subsidized UPS labels. Scarpa tends to use wide lasts, Dynafit medium, BD wide, Garmont very narrow.

Lastly, if you have patience and troll Ebay, Summitpost, and the TGR forums, you may find an awesome used setup for a fraction of the cost of a new one. Mine was about almost two grand for poles, boots, skins, bindings, and skis, but one of my friends just picked up all of that from a SP ad for $500. Another friend got everything minus boots for the same amount. But those deals did take a lot of forum time... Another option is to get a used setup from Mammoth Mountaineering. I'm sure others can recommend where else to look for used stuff.

I think Hamik gave you a lot of good advice. I've found it to be very worthwhile to wait for Mammoth Mountaineering to have a sale, since you can often get new boots (the most important ingredient) for around 1/2 price, plus the chance to try things on and get the advice of their excellent sales staff. They also have great deals on skis and bindings. I got a set of demo gear for way less than 1/2 the price new.

Dynafit bindings have their pros and cons. On the plus side, they are the lightest thing around, and they place your foot much closer to the ski than other bindings. On the down side, they can be a bit fussy putting them on--sometimes they just don't seem to want to click, and other times they seem like they're on right, only to pop off unexpectedly. The problem is that ice can get under the spring mechanisms, preventing them from fully locking into place. They also lack a lateral toe release. This is partially made up for by the lateral heel release, but not completely. Another plus is that they will release straight forward, something no other binding will do.

Good luck, and have fun!

Wow, guys thank you. This is just the top of advice we're looking for. We live in Santa Monica, so a trip down to San Diego and up to Mammoth will soon be in the works to check out gear.

I'm a San Diego based skier and I would say don't bother with Norpine for AT. Their boot selection is extremely limited and the guy there isn't knowledgeable when it comes to the AT/rando world. I'm out a brand new pair of dynafit skis because I took them to Norpine to have them mounted, and subsequently ruined. Since then I do all my own mounts. Anyway, I hate to badmouth a small shop but I feel that I was treated very badly there.

So........... I would echo that dynafit bindings are the best thing to happen to backcountry skiing since snow. Yes, they are the lightest, and they also have the best touring ergonomics: the pivot point is under your toe instead of out front and you don't lift the binding with every step like other AT bindings. Sure they take a little more attention to use, but only a trivial amount in my view and I wouldn't want to ski with anybody that can't pay attention for 10 seconds. For general purpose ski touring I would recommend the TLT Vertical ST. Read the articles on this site for a good foundation in AT skiing and Dynafit in particular:
http://www.wildsnow.com/

You might also peek at the G3 Onyx bindings. They are new and probably have some bugs to work out but they might bridge the gap between dynafit and regular AT bindings.

IMHO the most important selection in your kit is your boots. There are some amazing boots coming out this fall that might be game changers in the touring/downhill balancing act, e.g. the Dynafit TLT5. For now, if you're looking for a do-it-all boot that will tour well and still ski decently, I would look at the Dynafit Zzero series, Scarpa (Skookum, Spirit 3 and 4, F3), and Garmonts. Fit is the most important thing and I would sacrifice some weight savings to get a better fit if necessary. When you have the liner heat molded (a must-do), use a toe cap so you won't destroy your toes while touring. Keep in mind that when you first try on boots out of the box, they might feel narrower than they will be after molding. Go with shell fit, not liner fit and get fitted by a professional.

There are tons of excellent, versatile mid-fat skis out there. Head to Mammoth Mountaineering and demo skis from Dynafit, Black Diamond, G3, K2, Atomic, etc. Tell them you want something for longer tours and overnights if that's your goal. This will narrow the field to the lighter skis with flat tails. My personal favorite for real touring where you won't always know what kind of snow to expect is something light and in the 85-95 waist range. Some stand outs are the Dynafit Manaslu, Dynafit Mustagh Ata Superlight, K2 Wayback, and Trab Stelvios. Consider going a size shorter than you might use at a resort, not always necessary though.

If you're a 'casual downhill skier' that maybe hasn't skied a lot of unconsolidated snow, you're gonna have a learning process (read: face plants in breakable crust), enjoy. Its worth it.

Here's the most important stuff last:
Take an avalanche Level 1 training course. Get avalanche equipment (beacon, probe, shovel) and practice using it often. Continually learn how to assess avalanche risk and make decisions accordingly like your life depends on it, because it does. Ski with a partner and error on the conservative side when you make backcountry skiing decisions.

(edited to mention the Onyx)

I also had my first pair of skis wrecked during the mount at a local shop. People in LA will not be competent at Dynafit mounts; take the skis to Mammoth or do it yourself with the Dynafit pre-drilled skis (which are awesome, especially the Manaslus).

Guys, this is all incredibly invaluable information. My girlfriend and I are heading to Norpine this weekend to just look and price, then up to Mammoth the following weekend where we'll look more seriously.

I'm printing this thread out before we go so I have an idea of what to look for. Thank you thank you!

Also, about the avalanche course: we're both fairly experienced mountaineers (I just came off of the Polish Direct on Aconcagua two months ago; coincidentally, an Alaskan girl and a few others did the first ski descent of the Polish Direct, which got my gears going) and have taken avy 1 and 2 and have beacons and probes. Obviously we need to be even better prepared and on our toes when we get into the ski touring, but I appreciate the advice.

Can't wait to face plant!

I really really appreciate it.

Jason

Right on Jason. Good luck!
Oh, forgot to mention - Atomic RT-86 are pretty great all-round skis as well.

Ski sale...

http://gearx.com/featured-deals/sale/snowsports/skis.html?limit=all

I hate you, Brent...

OK, so which BDs do I get???

For what purpose?

Even MMS messed up my Dynafit mount the first time around. The toe piece ripped while I was skiing Hangman's. I went straight into town and asked them to fix it. Surprisingly, they had to think about it. But they did redo the mount, and I haven't had a problem since.

Brent, probably something a litter fatter than the Elan's I'm currently abusing. Handling the powder/crud is a little bit of an issue...

Tip rocker or an early rise tip is a big help with unconsolidated snow. A little bit of rocker can make a narrower ski handle as well as a big fat one without adding as much weight. How wide are your Elans? Some examples of interesting skis with early rise or rocker tip:

Dynafit Manaslu - Light, early rise tip, 95mm waist, still handles hard pack well. My favorite ski for touring. Pre-drilled for dynafit bindings so might require more investment if you don't wanna have them drilled more.

K2 Coomback - Still pretty light, I haven't skied this one but it gets good reviews and looks great on paper... early rise tip and 102mm waist. There's a female version as well in shorter sizes:
http://www.bentgate.com/k2wogosk.html

BD Justice - Getting heavy now, but its a lot of ski and has a lot of rocker. I spoke with tons of people in CO last week who are loving this ski. 115 waist and softer than the megawatt and zealot skis. Smallest size is 175 I think but it will ski short with the amount of rocker it has.

BD Zealot - This is my go-to ski when I don't have to cover a ton of distance and also inbounds. Its a stiff bastard and on the heavy side for touring. It has a 110 waist, tip rocker, and regular camber and sidecut like a GS ski so its a hybrid of sorts. The only problem is that it comes in 182 and 192 lengths and therefore is a LOT of ski. I'm 6'0'' 175lbs and ski the 182. If you get in the back seat on these, you'll create a small crater at the bottom of the hill.

Dynafit Stoke - 106mm waist, tip rocker, sidewall construction so its supposed to ski hardpack well. This is an early release but its a fall 2010 ski so won't go on sale until next fall at least. Looks like this could be a sweet ride... only a little heavier than Manaslu but a lot more ski and it comes in reasonable sizes.

Black Diamond Drift (also Fall 2010) - Similar to Stoke in weight, 100mm waist, tip rocker, a little stiffer perhaps. Also a very sweet BC ride but you can't buy it yet.

If it was me I would look at Manaslu and Coomback if you wanted to get 'em this year. Stoke and Drift might be game changers for wide touring skis if you wanted to wait until next season or shell out $799 for the Stoke now. The Justice would make a great quiver ski for soft conditions but its the least versatile. Remember, we're looking at corn season here soon and you already have a good rig for that.

Well,

If no one else is going to put in a word for the Fritschis I will. The Freeride/Explore/Eagle bindings are all refined and reliable, they are step-ins with relatively modern release systems, and they are excellent climbers--a very easy intro to the Randonnee world.

If you are not already strong downhill skiers (ie, if you fall, at all, on difficult snow), I would be at least a little concerned about relying repeatedly on the Dynafit's release system to keep your legs and knees safe. That said, at some point probably all of us wish we were using them--especially when you're chasing someone who is.

Quadaxial,

The above information is the best boiled-down intro. to A/T gear you'll get anywhere.

Two people that I know, my brother and a friend bought complete packages at Mammoth Mountaineering this year. My brother bought his three weeks ago and got the end of the season 30% off. Both spoke very highly of the staff and their experience at Mammoth Mountaineering.

I'm a 30 year veteran of resort skiing. I bought an A/T set-up last year and I have been out several times. I ordered all my gear on-line from Backcountry.com. Their support was great. I went with the Dynafit system, Garmont boots and K2 skis. I didn't trust any of the local So.Cal. ski shops to mount my bindings or thermo mold my boots. I got great info. from Wildsnow.com and did it all myself. I have enjoyed skiing the backcountry so much I don't know why I didn't get started years ago.