Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Winter gear

Hey great info Laura - Thanks!
So true on the sports bra part...

Gotta try that heat pack in the gloves thing prior to putting them on. It would definately expedite the ice cold to toasty hands situation.

I have used those small heat packs in the socks at night, it helps.

For anyone who hasn't looked at the Winter forum, there is nice thread from iPlod with a discussion about stoves that work well in cold conditions.

http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/forum/...age=1#Post71109

So I've reading through this nice running commentary and understand the importance of having a really good base layer and a shell for wind/snow/rain protection. I already have those items covered. My problem is planning which middle layer to buy next.

My teenage son and I have been hiking higher and colder and generally getting away with using a bunch of basic wicking layers and some of my mountain biking jerseys. It's time to upgrade the gear if we plan on doing more shoulder season backpacks.

If you could only buy one item, which of these options would give you the most flexibility for shoulder season backpacks?

A. a warm, breathable softshell (like a Marmot Gravity)
B. a light weight down sweater (like the Western Mountaineering Flash jacket) (less than one pound)
C. a big puffy down jacket (one pound and up)
D. a 200 weight Polartech fleece with a zip neck

Cost and pack space is an issue, so I want to avoid buying really expensive layers that overlap too too much in function.

Jeez, I feel like such a noob asking this. But I'm certainly willing to take good advice.

the idea is that you should be able to wear all your clothing at once. imo, i think down material shoul be avoided being used as a mid layer because compressed down doesn't work so well. i'm assuming that you'll have your shell and pack on along with the mid layer. i would stick with fleece, soft shell, synthetic.

what has worked for me is the expedition weight underwear which is similar to the 200 weight fleece but a lot lighter, compressible and cheaper. it gets a bit more expensive when you get into technical fleece and softshell. i find a synthetic vest works really well as a mid layer in addition to the other fleece mid layer. it is good for core warmth without adding bulk. most of the stuff i own are made from Patagonia. Patagonia, although priced their products ridiculously high, has tremendous clothing for outdoor pursuits and they got the layering down to a science. check them out and wait for a sale.

on a recent winter trip, i had 5 layers of clothing on without feeling like the Michelin guy. here i have the North Face t-zip, Patagonia R1 fleece, Micropuff synthetic vest, Arc'teryx shell, Das parka. this setup has been good for me in most winter conditions in the lower 48. some of my winter outings involved some technical climbing so my clothing system has to allow me to have full mobility with the arms. the longer you play in the mountains the more clothes you will own so experiment with your system and find which goes together well.


you can definitely dress for less but being in the mountains as much as i do, i choose to go with gear that lasts forever and performs at the highest level. if i can recommend one piece of mid layer, get the Patagonia R1 Hoody. it is time tested and is loved by dirtbag climbers all over the world. you might have to break into the piggy bank.

Kevin, thanks for the mention of the R1 Hoody. I found one for sale for $109, incl shipping! Late Xmas present for myself!

Depends on how hot or cold you run, but IMO the down sweater gives the best bang for the ounce. I dumped my Polartec when i got my WM Flight jacket - the down jacket was both warmer and lighter than the Polartec.

The big downside of the down is you have to keep them dry, so do include a rain shell.

Two of my hiking buddies fall into the "Down Jacket" camp and the "Thermal Fleece" camp, with much discussion on the pros and cons of either choice. Interestingly enough, with 50 years combined hiking experience (four seasons in the Sierra) neither of them owned a down jacket until this year, but both of them are Patagonia fans -- fleece and otherwise. The benefit of the fleece layering system is that it allows you to pare down and wear a light layer with a backpack on (and still be comfortable during the warmer part of a winter day.) However, if you are the type who stays warm while in motion with no need for the extra warmth of a jacket, there is nothing like a puffy down jacket at the end of the day. The fleece layering system has kept me (the human ice cube) warm enough down to 26 degrees in the morning, while the jacket alone was enough by mid-day.However, friend Billy never needs a jacket while hiking so he now leaves the fleece home and carries the lighter down for use at the campsite.

Bottom line, if you must choose between fleece and down: Are you warm enough without fleece during the hike? Than get a down jacket. If you need an extra layer while hiking during the day, than the fleece is the much more versatile of the two (the ultimate combo for me is fleece with a down vest and shell for the real chill)

I hope that this has not created more confusion.

B

I'm a big fan of Icebreakers, the Hub loves Patagonia.
Here is a site that has good prices on Pat R1-4 layers - Trailsloggers.com
BUT pair it with this deal and it can't be beat....
here is a "buy it today only" gift certificate that will get you a $50 at Trailsloggers for $25. You can use it at any time after the purchase. A good deal in my world.
Link to Groupon site - 12/29/09 - Trailslogger

Cheers & happy hiking

This thread had me almost LOL this morning! It is wonderfully informative and confusing; I love it! Thanks to everyone for sharing your experience. And while I am on the subject, kudos to Doug Sr.for providing a great forum; it is a pleasure to follow and participate in such a thoughtful, enthusiastic and informative "community".

Question for Kevin; One of the jackets that has caught my attention is the DAS parka, (and/or the micro-puff jacket for milder conditions) and I was wondering how you would evaluate the parka, and if you had some feelings about the synthetic vs.down?

for sure nick. that's what a hiking/climbing community is all about. helping each other. imo, that's what the spirit of mountaineering is all about, sharing of ideas and knowledge.

i like the Das parka. a lot of climbers swear by it. it dries fast and is really warm. use it in combination with other mid layers and i think it is good for most things in the lower 48. i have used it down lower on the Alaskan Range and down in the Cordillera Blanca, Peru. i think steve house used it to climb the Rupal Face of Nanga Parbat, the baddest face on the planet on an 8,000 peak. but then steven house is a sponsored by Patagonia and is considered the best alpinist in North America so you can't really compare to him.

anyway, a big part of choosing between synthetic vs down comes down to where you play. people in the PNW usually go with synthetic, for obvious reasons. people in the Sierra usually don't have to deal with wet conditions so the preference would be to go with down.

i have two down jackets, the Marmot down sweater and the Feathered Friends Icefall. none of these are comparable to the Das because one isn't considered a full winter jacket and the other is only good for expeditions to Alaska or colder places. i think the previous posters mentioned the pros and cons of down. with current innovations in fabric, some companies go with beefier shell material to prevent the down from getting wet. however, by doing so you are sacrificing two of the pros of down, light weight and compressibility. can't have the best of both world.

i like both for their intended use. i need want to get a quality down jacket with good shell material and see how i like it.

Check out First Ascent Men's Igniter Jacket, available from Whittaker Mountaineering. Sounds almost identical to the Das Parka, but lists at $61 less. I just ordered one myself.

I can also vouch for the First Ascent Igniter Jacket. I was also looking at the DAS, and settled on the Igniter. The two factors that really differentiated it to me was the price, and the fact that first ascent offers everything in tall sizes, whereas the DAS was either too baggy (large) or felt like a kids jacket in the sleeves (medium).

Glad to read the good reviews on the First Ascent Igniter Jacket, because I have one on the way! BTW, the ladies Igniter is on sale for $129 through Eddie Bauer (if we are talking about the same jacket)

Kevin, Bee, thanks for all of your comments. I'm enjoying learning from much more experienced hikers.

My son and I went to REI for trying on fleece and down mid layers. For us, the down won out. We tend to be warm hikers who would use the extra layer mainly during rest stops (my son standing in the cold waiting for me to catch up) and around camp.

Now we've broken open our piggy banks for determining how much we can spend. Our price range is $150-200. I'm leaning towards the Montbell Alpine Light jacket which has 4 oz of 800 fill down and weighs only 11.3 oz. For $160, it sounds like a practical choice. My son is looking at the Feathered Friends Hyperion Jacket. Does anybody have any feedback on either of these choices?

For those of you who wear down as a rest/camp jacket, what are your favorites? I hike warm but freeze at rest, so I am investigating down jackets that might fit Sierra conditions for at-rest activities; warm but not expedition weight. Brent mentioned just jumping into the sleeping bag, so add that to the question; your favorite sleeping bag? For 3 season, I have a Western Mountaineering Ultralite that I love, but for winter, I figure more insulation and not so snug in the fit.

There are some excellent sales going on at Eddie Bauer right now (First Ascent/Whittaker Mountaineering, also) so it is worth a moment to take a look -- especially at the First Ascent Down Sweaters (850 fill, I believe) I bought the Peak XV of the same brand, but I have some circulation issues. As far as down sleeping bags, my buddies all swear by the MontBell brand (take out your checkbook!!) Froggie owns a Feathered Friends down jacket, and although quality is top notch, I believe that my First Ascent product (at almost half the price) is every bit comparable.

B

I like a mid-weight (100 gram or so) primaloft (shelled synthetic insulation) layer as a mid layer instead of 200-weight fleece for being active and a big down jacket for being at rest. My two favorite mid layers are my mountain hardwear compressor pl jacket and the arcteryx atom LT hoody. They are lighter than fleece for the same warmth, dry faster, block wind better, pack better, and seem to breathe better. When I need to sit still to belay or eat then I'll put on the western mountaineering meltdown jacket in the sierra. 17 oz of happiness with a fully insulated hood. Sizes are unisex so men buy 1 up. The L fits me and I'm usually M in everything. The DAS parka is great but is nearing the weight of an expedition parka. For a fully baffled down jacket with hood, check out the feathred friends Volant.

Big time second/3rd/4th on the R1 hoody as well. I just skied in Tahoe for the last week in 0-10 degree weather wearing a smartwool midweight base, R1 shirt, and the compressor jacket under a thin shell and I was quite warm sitting on the lifts and sometimes overheating while skiing. Remember if your hands or toes are cold, put something more on your core and head, e.g. vest, mid-layer, thicker hat, etc.

Of the (too) many sleeping bags I have, my favorite for the sierra in winter is the mountain hardwear phantom 0. It has a very nice weight-warmth-quality-price ratio. Its as warm and light as similar western mountaineering bags (not as nice of a shell fabric though) but it goes on sale big-time. Last month it was 40% off on altrec.com. Campmor has them now for $320. If I'm expecting colder than usual temps I'll bump down to a western mountaineering -15 that weighs .75 pounds more. The microfiber shells on the WM bags are excellent. Vapor barrier sleeping bag liners are worth looking into if you're going to spend 2 or more nights in a down bag below freezing. Each night your body will add moisture to your down, and its pretty hard to remove it unless you have a warm sunny day with a lot of spare time.

I will second what Laura said about wool base layers. Wool feels great if its not itchy and keeps the smell away. My caveat hear is that it holds more moisture (higher wet-out point) than synthetics like capilene so you have to manage your heat level more carefully. You should be doing this anyway when its cold so you don't get all sweaty, but IMHO wool is a little less forgiving if you overheat and get it wet. When you stop moving with wet undies, you will pay. Still, if you find a good wool layer and keep it dry it can be really comfy. For stop-go stuff like skiing at a resort, I go with mid-weight wool. For aerobic activities I stick with the capilene or much thinner wool under a wicking grid layer like the R1. I especially like wool for boxer-briefs and I find this one item prevents the more serious smell problems.

Great thread going here. One of the best posts was where Brent said "my activities can pretty much be divided into working hard and sitting still". So true. I used to carry multiple layers that never got used individually. Go for a few layers to cover the range of "working hard" then add a big puffy coat on top.

The puffy coat (or "belay jacket") needs to be cut big enough to go over all your other layers. Down is great because it's light and compresses well, but can be a problem if you need it in freezing rain- luckily we don't get that too much in the Sierra. Something like the First Ascent Igniter Jacket with 100 grams/square meter of Primaloft 1 seems a bit lightly insulated for sitting around if it's super cold, but otherwise seems well made and designed- I tried one on the other day. (Note that only some of the Eddie Bauer stores carry the First Ascent line- check the web site. It's on sale for $129) I've noticed that the Wild Things Belay Parka has twice the Primaloft thickness (6 oz/yd). I ended up buying a new down jacket instead mostly because it will compress much smaller which is nice for day trips (and I already have a 100 gram Primaloft jacket).

Gloves and Headwear: Splurge here. I start with thin but tough knit nylon liners, then some leather-palm Windbloc fleece for nice weather skiing or snowshoe work, then gauntlet style Gore-Tex overmitts with 300 weight fleece in the hand area. For headwear I bring a knit cap for nice weather and a big windproof balaclava to layer on top when it gets stormy. I like a good hat brim either from a baseball cap or hood to keep snow from blocking the vents on top of my goggles.

Regarding boots- If you can start with warm feet it's easier to keep them warm. In the morning my second pot of hot water (after the choffee) goes into a pair of one-pint water bottles which are inserted into the boots, which get turned toes-up for the heat to penetrate.

Thermos! I like to bring a one-pint thermos for a hot mid-day drink. This is also a guaranteed water supply if it's super cold.

Water: When you're powering up the mountain and making lots of heat it's good to keep a couple small water bottles in your shirt. Each time you drink, pack more snow in. It seems that a small Camelback might work front-mounted?

When planning your layers consider the group's activity level. When I hike with my kids we go much slower than I do solo- so I need more clothes.

Finally, plan for daytime temps to be 15F-40F, night time to mostly be 0F-20F, but sometimes dropping to -10F. Add wind to your plans as well.