|
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 28
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 28 |
JayD's recent photo TR and some other outerwear posts got me to thinking about winter gear. In part because I found myself experiencing gear lust looking at the cool (no pun intended) outerwear everyone was wearing, and on a more practical level because I have never done any winter adventuring, but would like to. I always enjoy, and feel a bit envious of, all of the winter TR's, and year round access sounds wonderful. I am interested in people's opinions/preferences regarding winter gear. Do you use lots of layers, or a few warm ones that vent well, water proof or water shedding, down or synthetic, boots with liners or boots with heavy socks, gloves or mittens,etc? I know some of this must vary with anticipated conditions and particular activity. One of my own considerations is that I am fine when moving, but really freeze when I stop or am at rest. I hope this isn't too broad or redundant.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 117
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 117 |
Winter presents a whole different set of problems. Others here will probably contribute their ideas, but here are a few tips of my own:
1. Layering - yes
2. Avoid cotton clothing, especially jeans (the Blue Death)
3. Wool or fleece cap
4. Gore-tex or similar outer layer.
5. Sun screen and sun glasses (snow-blindness ain't fun)
6. Wool or wool blend socks (I wear Smart-Wool socks with thin liner socks)
7. Winter sleeping bag
8. Stout tent
Boots should never be laced so tightly that you inhibit circulation to your toes. In frost bite cases I have seen, there is usually a define line on the person's foot, below which is damage (the frost line), caused by tight fitting boots and laces.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 720
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 720 |
I second that what Dustrunner recommends.
Journey well...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 380
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 380 |
family pack of this: 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 102
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 102 |
Make sure that as soon as you stop you pull on your down jacket. Too many times people wait until their cold before they pull it on. Start warm, stay warm.
I love my down tent booties as well, they are the bees knees.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 106
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 106 |
I would get a copy of the 7th edition of "Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills" if you really want to get into winter/snow travel.
Aside from that, a good place to start is by taking a Wilderness Basics course that has some outings in the snow. They'll cover the fundamentals of dealing with snow, including clothing. They have some courses sponsored by the Sierra Club where I live (San Diego) and in LA and Orange Counties. I don't know if they offer a course in Santa Barbara.
I'm new to the snow myself, but I do know clothing and staying dry are key. Stuff on the outside will get wet. You gotta make sure you are dry and warm inside. And even sweat can be your enemy, even if it ain't snowing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 106
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 106 |
"Do you use lots of layers, or a few warm ones that vent well, water proof or water shedding, down or synthetic, boots with liners or boots with heavy socks, gloves or mittens,etc? I know some of this must vary with anticipated conditions and particular activity. One of my own considerations is that I am fine when moving, but really freeze when I stop or am at rest. I hope this isn't too broad or redundant"
In reply to this, I would say you'll probably have to experiment a little, to see what works for you. Some people I know wear gloves and mittens over them and their hands are still cold. Others sweat way more than others and they need to deal with that accordingly in their choice of clothing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 43
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 43 |
Coincidentally, I received an email from REI yesterday on a recent "How to Dress in Layers" article that's on their site. I found it to be pretty good, as I am also gearing up for some winter travel. I have alot for skiing / boarding, but need to rethink some for backpacking / trekking. http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/dress+layers.html
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 135
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 135 |
My personal take on it is that having to change a lot of layers sucks big time because it takes too much time to manage them on the move. I try to set things up so I only have to add/remove a single layer at any given time. I generate a lot of heat when moving and lose it quickly when I stop. If its actually cold out (below freezing) on a mountaineering or climbing trip my activities can pretty much be divided into working hard and sitting still, so I like to have only 2 clothing modes to match this. I'm also not a big fan of heavy weight fleece, go for shelled synthetic (primaloft, etc.) instead. Its much warmer for the weight, packs and blocks wind better and has all the other benefits of heavy fleece. Capilene 4 (polartec powerdry) and R1 fleece is great though... its light and stretchy and the grid-void pattern on the inside wicks like crazy.
My action suit is 1-2 layers of capilene with a non-membrane soft shell. My current favorite setup on top is a cap-3 shirt under a cap-4 shirt under an arcteryx epsilon-SV jacket. The legs get cap-3 under mammut champ pants, maybe with R1 pants if its super cold. This is a really warm situation when moving around and would be too warm above freezing. The feet get smartwool mountaineering socks w/ liners, and I'll choose from the La Sportiva Trango Extremes, or Spantiks depending on how cold it is or how long the trip is. Both of these boots are sized large for good blood-flow with thick socks on. Hands get some softshell tool gloves for action and some big primaloft mittens that fit over the tool gloves for sitting around.
When I stop to do anything, out comes the big puffy. This ain't no down sweater... my favorite for CA is the western mountaineering meltdown (17oz. with down hood!), or I have a feathered friends icefall parka for the heavy artillery. I might also carry an extra mid-layer (13oz. synthetic Atom jacket) and maybe feathered friends volant down pants (<17oz.) if I plan on hanging around outside after dark. So in my pack there's less than 4 pounds of extra clothing that I'm not wearing, counting the mittens and an extra pair of socks. I might also bring my alpha LT goretex jacket (13oz.) if its gonna snow a lot or I expect the wind to really howl.
The downside to this kind of setup...................... this crap is expensive, but the upside to getting the expensive stuff is that it lasts a long time, can take a beating on rocks, is versatile, has lifetime warranties, and it really works. I would build your collection slowly and test each item immediately on a local hike. Buy from stores that will let you return (Backcountry.com, REI, etc.).
Last edited by Brent; 12/03/09 06:34 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 138
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 138 |
My personal take on it is that having to change a lot of layers sucks big time because it takes too much time to manage them on the move. I try to set things up so I only have to add/remove a single layer at any given time. I generate a lot of heat when moving and lose it quickly when I stop. If its actually cold out (below freezing) on a mountaineering or climbing trip my activities can pretty much be divided into working hard and sitting still, so I like to have only 2 clothing modes to match this. I'm also not a big fan of heavy weight fleece, go for shelled synthetic (primaloft, etc.) instead. Its much warmer for the weight, packs and blocks wind better and has all the other benefits of heavy fleece. Capilene 4 (polartec powerdry) and R1 fleece is great though... its light and stretchy and the grid-void pattern on the inside wicks like crazy.
My action suit is 1-2 layers of capilene with a non-membrane soft shell. My current favorite setup on top is a cap-3 shirt under a cap-4 shirt under an arcteryx epsilon-SV jacket. The legs get cap-3 under mammut champ pants, maybe with R1 pants if its super cold. This is a really warm situation when moving around and would be too warm above freezing. The feet get smartwool mountaineering socks w/ liners, and I'll choose from the La Sportiva Trango Extremes, or Spantiks depending on how cold it is or how long the trip is. Both of these boots are sized large for good blood-flow with thick socks on. Hands get some softshell tool gloves for action and some big primaloft mittens that fit over the tool gloves for sitting around.
When I stop to do anything, out comes the big puffy. This ain't no down sweater... my favorite for CA is the western mountaineering meltdown (17oz. with down hood!), or I have a feathered friends icefall parka for the heavy artillery. I might also carry an extra mid-layer (13oz. synthetic Atom jacket) and maybe feathered friends volant down pants (<17oz.) if I plan on hanging around outside after dark. So in my pack there's less than 4 pounds of extra clothing that I'm not wearing, counting the mittens and an extra pair of socks. I might also bring my alpha LT goretex jacket (13oz.) if its gonna snow a lot or I expect the wind to really howl.
The downside to this kind of setup...................... this crap is expensive, but the upside to getting the expensive stuff is that it lasts a long time, can take a beating on rocks, is versatile, has lifetime warranties, and it really works. I would build your collection slowly and test each item immediately on a local hike. Buy from stores that will let you return (Backcountry.com, REI, etc.). what he said. winter climbing can get annoying and only through experience and experiment will you find out what works best for you. for "normal" Sierra winter stuff you can leave the down pants and expedition parkas at home. if you are starting out winter mountaineering in the Sierra, you can get away with half the stuff. I have gone away from using Gore-tex pants and using exclusively soft shell. pretty much all my winter stuff in the lower 48 i've brought only the Patagonia Capilene 3 and Alpine Pants for lower body. this system has worked for me for climbing in Lee Vining, Alaska, Washington and Peru. again, find what works for you. if it gets cold while you are in camp, use your sleeping bag and/or go to bed. and if it gets really cold, well then you should stay at home because you are climbing in crap weather. the only way for you to dry anything in the winter is to sleep with it so there's no point in bringing extra base layer or socks. that's my theory. i wear the same socks/base layer for a week or more on long winter trips. i've also gone away from using heavy fleece. the only time where i move with heavy fleece was high up on Denali. but then everything you bring will depend on the peak and conditions you are expecting. sometimes expectations and actual experience do not align and that's where you wish that extra heavy fleece or parka were with you. 
When in doubt, go up.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 28
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 28 |
Thanks, especially to Brent and Kevin. It is useful to have personal takes on what works well for different folks. What cold weather gear I have is ancient; heavy gortex and absurdly heavy bulky fleece. As suggested, I am going to take it slowly, try stuff out and see what works for me, and to bite the bullet and get high quality gear. I am planning to go slowly with the winter stuff anyway; maybe day trekking up to the Portal, check out the boarded up store, maybe a visit to Lone Pine lake, or doing an easy overnight in that area. For anything beyond that, I will go with getting some instruction first. As an aside, my wife and I went x-country skiing in the Rock Creek area a few years ago (my first time, face-plants and all), at the tail end of a storm. That evening was exhilarating and wild (by my standards anyway), and the next day was stunning; crystal clear skies, virgin snow, stunning views. The experience won't let go of me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 612
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 612 |
Ask and ye shall recieve. What great advice can be obtained from asking questions here. Those were some great answers. Thanks I have taken notes.I am curious about the capilene 3 pants. I am not familar with capiline products.I am pretty up to speed with upper layers but not so much on the lower layers. I still use silk long underware base layer and ski pants or gore-tex pants.Neither pants are very comfortable to hike in.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,391
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,391 |
Capilene does a great job of wicking, but, sorry guys, y'all stink.
Thanks to steepandcheap.com, I've become an Icebreaker whore. Wool, baby, wool. The new technical merinos are simply fab, and I've got just about every thickness, short vs. long sleeve, half-zip, crew-neck, regular cuff vs. thumb-hole to hold it down my arm. They are also incredibly good at wicking and drying fast, can be machine washed/dried, and don't carry the stink from trip to trip. I've also picked up full-length and capri-length bottoms to keep the ginormous bulbous quads toasty.
Agreed with Brent about keeping the layers simple and the yummy toasty stuff at the top of the pack. My Rab Neutrino goes just about everywhere with me now, and a nice hat to cover the schweaty mop at stops. I also should own stock in those chemical warmers: I usually throw a pair into the gloves I will put on at the stops BEFORE I start hiking, so they are cooking in the pack while I'm moving. Nice a warm when I throw on the gloves.
Now, for any ladies reading this, there is one piece of gear I would recommend bringing as a backup: extra sports bra. (Kevin, we'll talk about your moobs later) Yes, they are made with wicking material. Yes, they pull moisture away from the skin. But then it has no where to go!!! Trust me, guys: best way to duplicate this feeling is to wear a few socks under a heart rate monitor. Cold and wet on top of the core is NOT optimal. So I've always got a fresh one to put on as soon as I get to camp. (Or, when done hiking for the day, take one of the chemical warmers out of the cooked gloves and throw it down in the bra. You're not really supposed to have it next to your skin, but I haven't been burned, yet.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 28
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 28 |
I wasn't sure how serious the chemical warmer suggestion was. Is it common to use them, maybe for things like keeping water from freezing, or warming up the boots in the morning, or as MooseTracks mentioned, keeping the camp gloves toasty? Do they really work for 18 hours or so?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,391
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,391 |
Seriously, I love the chemical jobbies. I tend to get cold, both from sweating (a lot) and the fact that the mop stays wet for a long time after stopping. My fingertips seem to be particularly susceptible to the cold. Don't know about 18 hours, but 8 is usually good for the day hikes, and I just carry more for overnight. See there's this whole thing with me not caring how heavy the pack is...
As for water freezing, that's why I have the long sleeping bag, and will load all stuff that might freeze into the bottom part of my bag. Boots, gaiters, socks, fuel, camera batteries, etc, all get loaded into a big plastic bag down there. I don't waste the chemical warmers for that. They're for keeping me warm.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 97
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 97 |
I've asked Santa to sign me up for Sierra Mountaineering's Winter Travel class. Then I can justify buying needed essentials like a down sweater.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 135
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 135 |
Hiking up to the Portal for a night is a good idea for a trial run. There's a lot of fun to be had up there and you can bail in a pinch. A good start for adding winter gear to your kit might be a warmer ground pad than you would use for summer or ultralight. You can just add a second pad as well, like a cheap ensolite pad (these don't last long around pointy things though). I remember the first time I camped on snow I could feel the cold coming up to get me right through my ridge-rest, ick. Jump in your sleeping bag as early as you can right after or during a hot dinner. If you stand around and get chilled before getting in your bag the trees will laugh at you. "SUCKER!!" Do some jumping jacks or a take brisk walk then jump in your bag straight away.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 89
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 89 |
I'm gonna third what Brent said. Softshell pants + synthetic or wool bottoms is all I wear on my lower half on even the coldest Sierra days. At camp I throw on old-school fleece pants (wish I had down!). I recommend softshells with integrated gaiters, since they save a lot of weight and are simple enough that they won't break; I've had several pairs of OR exped crocs break on me mid-trip, which is never fun (the darned buckle). A good alternative is the stretchy, cheap scree gaiter from OR; the gaiter does not need to be waterproof in the winter.
My top half is 1 stretchy polartec shirt, and that's all; you're warm as long as you keep moving. You will be cold when you start, but in 5 minutes of moderate effort you will be toasty. I've tested my system in various conditions: I can get away with a normal t-shirt down to 25 and a midweight polartec down to 15.
You don't need a jacket, soft or hard, unless it's windy or precipitating. I always keep a light gore-tex shell (the very thin kind) handy for wind and snow, but I almost never wear it. Balaclavas and are very important, and I never hated myself more than when I couldn't find mine (it was buried in my bladder pouch...) in 60mph winds and 15 degree temps on Mont Blanc.
The most important piece is the down jacket. I have a mid to heavy-weight down jacket which is always at the top of my pack which I wear as soon as I stop for a break/belay. It doubles as my pillow at night, and if it gets particularly frigid it comes into the bag with me. You will develop a very intimate connection with your down jacket. I like it more than my quarks, even.
Gloves are a very personal subject, and the optimum glove depends totally on what you do outside. Ice climbing, rock, hiking, skiing... the requirements are all different. Trial and error or ask someone who does what you do.
I've never really found the chemical warmers necessary, but this is also a personal issue. One of my friends used to run XC during DC winters and was frostnipped a few times, and now his toes get cold even in double plastics and double wool socks in 10 degrees. You'll find out!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 135
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 135 |
I forgot the mention the balaclava... good call. Baklava is nice too, with coffee.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 28
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 28 |
Baklava....good call. Goes to the top of the list!
|
|
|
|
|
