Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Bad conditions May 29 and Christine's fall

What a fine story and how fortunate there were no casualties....
Some may disagree, but my past efforts in the mountains taught me never go where there's snow without ice axe and crampons, for snow can become ice in a hurry...
Better to have the crampons..if you're careful about footing you're likely not to need the axe except as a 3rd. leg and once in awhile to modify the footing a bit.
I fell on ice once as a lad and the axe didn't help me a bit; providence provided a patch of scrub to stop me, but the point then was I sat down on the slope to put on my crampons...better have them on BEFORE you really need them. And one more thing...real crampons...not instep creepers; you need the bite of the real deal on slopes...

Wade...some people are lucky you were there for them.

Adrian

Unfortunately, in the US today it is unwarranted to assume that people without ice ax and crampons will avoid traveling where their safety may depend on having and knowing how to use ice ax and crampons.

The form of advice as reported is wrong to the extent that it makes this assumption.

A better form might be:

"Don't travel where your safety may depend on ice ax and crampons if you don't have training in the use of -as well as- possession of ice ax and crampons. Have a safe day."

This may need to be accompanied with such hints as "Did you notice it is snowing?" or "It is still winter travel season here."

A combination of encouragement to proceed (by making no point of safety issues) and shoddy substitutes for proper training may not be the best way to correct the incomplete form of advice that has been reported.

Dale B. Dalrymple
http://dbdimages.com

Steve, I think the issue with crampons is the "conventional wisdom" that one *generally* should not go into terrain with crampons, without an axe. The thinking, as I understand it, is that with crampons, you can get yourself into situations that you could never go without, where an axe is absolutely needed for safety.

Of course, it all becomes a matter of judgement, and the reality is that those with no experience tend to have none, because judgement is gained through experience.

I like the approach just mentioned.

Gripping (or lack of due to ice) report. I'm glad everybody made it down safe.

If you bring up the crampons, you better be sure that your boots can accomodate them. Most people, including me, prefer to hike in comfortable soft leather boots rather than the ridgid hard plastic or leather ones.

How is the Mountaineers Route, we are heading up to Iceberg Lake June 14th, summit next day probably, unless we fly up, and were even thinking of roping up, is that too much? May also have a crack at Russell is time permits.

Thanks,

Duncan

Dale and Ken, your advice is ok, but it sounds like the advice a worried mother would give. I have to grant you that your advice is more sound.

The trouble I have with it, though, is that if everyone followed that advice, nobody would ever venture out on an adventure. Nobody would drive faster than 50 mph. Inyo NF would post a ranger at the trail head and turn everyone away who did not carry a certificate of completion of a 3-day avalanche training course and a 2-day crampon and ice-axe training course. Or better yet, they would put up a fence across the trail and post notices to keep out, like they have at Hot Creek.

I still maintain that encouraging people to learn how to strap on crampons and watch a 10 minute video on ice-axe self-arrest is whole lot better than preaching that they should never go.

Sorry if you consider it shoddy training, but it is the most training a lot of people ever get. And statistics show it is good enough for 99% of the hikers going up the Mt Whitney Trail.

I'd just like to see less of the "You'd better not go" messages, and more of the "Beware and be careful... Here's where you can learn more...".

SteveC,

It is a waste of time telling folks they risking injury or death by going forward without proper gear to training. As BobR did last week, when asked, I tell people it is not safe to go forward without proper gear and walk away at a high rate of speed.

I had a guy tell me this past winter that 4-point crampons and trekking poles were good enough for a high angle slope...after he had just done about a 100' glissade on his face. A few weeks later, I saw the same guy doing the same thing.

It took me about 4 years before I felt comfortable enough with this gear to go up the chute to Trail Crest. My guess since I started doing this type of stuff later in life I error on the side of caution.

From experience, once you see an accident, you do not want to see another one.

No post in this thread has suggested "you shouldn't go". or "the trail should be closed".

I pointed out the danger that followed over-simplification of safety considerations. I was concerned that someone might oversimplify the situation to only being a choice between watching the video or not going. But who would ever mistake these as alternatives that I had to choose between?



I think the juxtaposition of these two actions as if they were viable alternatives we are limited to choose between is inappropriate and endangering.



There are no "You'd better not go" messages in this thread.

This site has a good record of encouraging people to appreciate going as far as they "can" and learning what "can" means with regard to skills, equipment, route conditions and weather.

Most of this thread has been about "how far we went" and discussion of what "can" turned out to be and how to recognize and improve upon it. The reporting has been thorough. The safety issues deserve more than passing consideration.

Dale B. Dalrymple

Three cheers to Wade and his heroism...

It never ceases to amaze me how ill-prepared some people can be (and this is coming from a newbie). I can understand a person taking another's advice and leaving the crampons and axe at the portal; what I cannot understand, however, is how said person can push on past Trail Camp despite the obvious conditions between TC and the summit. There is no excuse for that...

Having been in the same area only two weeks prior, I can attest first-hand that there are people who not only come unprepared but then proceed to disregard every bit of sound advice offered them. What Soutswell kindly left out in his trip report (MWT 5/15-17) was the absolute hubris of the brothers from Pennsylvania. With rented crampons, no axe and no previous experience, they ascended the gully next to the switchbacks. Courageous? Sure. But their plan for getting down was to glissade down the gully with the crampons on their hands (having no previous experience glissading). We learned this as we passed them on our way down from the summit (they were still ascending along Trail Crest). The older brother, 100 yards behind the younger, was suffering from altitude sickness, was out of water, but refused to take any from us. He was still going to climb higher, then glissade in his hypoxiated state!

I had no choice but to rat them out to a couple of rangers further down trail, hoping the rangers' authority could disuade the brothers from their suicidal tendencies (it worked: the brothers back-stepped their way down the gully hours later). I felt like crap for being a stoolie, but I certainly didn't want my afternoon disturbed by a whirlybird plucking their carcasses from the moraine.

Later, despite being sunburned to a crisp, the brothers refused my offer for SPF 50. They even refused my offer to lend them my water filter, preferring to trek out from TC without any water (nor did they want to take the time to boil water with their rented stove). In hindsight, perhaps it was the smell of urine (theirs, presumably) that turned them off of drinking from the lake next to their campsite.

Ironically, even though the brothers ignored my advice to stash their food away from their site (and instead hid it in their tent), it was my food that was pillaged by the marmots (tuna and Dove chocolate for everyone--mea culpa for not stashing it better). What I believe is the worst thing about the brothers' experience is that it undoubtedbly emboldened them to take more chances in the future.

Perhaps a near-death experience and a bruised ego are the best things that could happen to the unprepared trekker. It's kind of the mountaineer version of being scared straight...

Ok, I'll pipe in one more time. Sorry this is so long.

I agree that on a snow trail or mildly pitched snow chute the use of crampons and ice ax with minimal training is in most cases safer than not using them. My only problem is that many people assume they need about as much training to use these tools, as they need to learn how to put their boots on properly. You strap them on carry the ax and your safe. Most tragic mountaineering accidents occur because of a false sense of security. When I take "newbie’s" out and train them in the use of crampons and ice ax I try to get five things engrained in their head.

1. Make sure they know how to attach the crampon securely to their boot. Always try the crampon on at home before you leave to make sure it fits the particular boot you plan to use and to check the crampon for any defects. I know from first hand experience that there is nothing worse than a crampon that fails because it did not fit properly or is broken.

2. I show them how fast they can get into a situation wearing crampons where they do not have the skill or tools to get out of. We all know that going up in difficult terrain is harder than coming down. It's relatively easy to get up a very steep hard packed or even icy slope with crampons and no training at all. Coming back down that same route may put you in much more danger or risk than you anticipated. I use a very short 55 degree pitch in the San G region and have the person front point up the slope about 2 feet and them tell them conditions have changed and we need to go back down and take another route. Without exception the look on their face when they look over their shoulder and contemplate going back down is priceless and teaches a very important lesson.

3. When walking with crampons you need to take your time and be very deliberate in your steps. This is especially true if they have front points on the crampons. Again, with crampons it is possible to traverse a much steeper slope than you would do in boots alone. A fall, even with crampons in this situation ramps up the danger level. I'm sure you have all seen or experienced front points catching a gator or pant leg resulting in a trip and fall. It is also easy to unexpectedly catch a point on the snow or ice causing you to lose balance. So I make sure the person gets a handle on focusing on balance, foot placement and deliberate actions while walking with crampons. I was leading two friends across the "easy" walk off traverse on the MR one year when one of my friends caught a front point on his pants and tripped. He was able to self-arrest on the spot but said his heart was in his throat for about two minutes.

This brings up a side point. I'm not sure front points are ever really needed when hiking the MT in winter. They probably pose more risk then benefit since this is the point most often snagging on pants or gators.

4. Proper use of ice ax when traveling. The video referred to in this post is excellent.

5. Proper self arrest technique. The more practice you get the safer you will be. It's all up to you. Find a relatively steep slope with a safe run out.

So to recap, the risks of use without training are:

1. Getting your self in a situation your not prepared for.
2. Crampon failure when you need it.
3. Tripping yourself (and ripping your $300 pants).
3. Not being able to self arrest (see #1)