Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Taking gear found in the outdoors

I thought there were some interesting issues, and didn't want to hijack the thread:


{Originally Posted By: Eric Owen...the last time I tried taking gear that I found on the mnt, the POLICE tried to press charges for interfering with a crime sceen. I spoke with the Sheriffs dept at the Notch once I located the the id. The Sheriffs dept told me to leave the pack. AND THAT IS WHAT I DID.}

KevinR said:
That the police would consider pressing charges is sad. I'd never make a good cop.

If you helped re-unite a lost child in a shopping mall with its mom, would you be suspected of attempted kidnapping?

yes.

If you were riding on a bus/sitting in an airport, and noticed a suitcase with loud ticking and in turn notified police who discovered it was a bomb, would you be suspected of being the bomber?

Yes.

I don't wish to hijack this thread (at least it had a happy ending) but am saddened that the lesson from the law enforcement types when finding lost items is to simply leave them. To me, that's a world turned upside down.

Ah, but we don't have the perspective of the LEO's experience.

Ken, I think there might be a bit more to it than simply a blanket rule.

IHMO, police officers quickly develop a pretty accurate ability to tell when someone is lying to them (since most of the time, someone is). I would imagine that appearance, demeanor, body language, what you say happened or didn't happen, etc., would all play a role in whether or not you are considered a suspect.

If you walked up to a mall security guard, crying child in hand, and calmly said, "This little boy/girl is lost. He/she was over by the {whatever} crying", I doubt that the security guard would immediately think of you as a predator. Why would you "turn the kid in" if you were? I once reported some unattended bags at the airport; I wasn't accused of being a terrorist.

To say that one would be immediately targeted as a suspect when one attempts to "do the right thing", will simply discourage any of us from doing exactly that. I for one will continue to do the right thing and if I get a cop with an attitude, so be it.

p.s. We don't know the circumstances of the guy's experience in the other thread. If it was determined to be a crime scene, did it have barrier tape around it yet? Was it yet undiscovered but widely known that someone was being looked for? You can't really generalize one person's sparsely described, specific, unique experience to the all other possible circumstances I don't think.

Just my 0.02.

here's my experience with "booty":

In 2000, I was involved on a backpacking trip from Cedar Grove in King's Canyon, up Bubbs Creek, then crossing to East Lake and Lake Reflection. (Great trip, BTW)

When we got up to the crossing, it was one serious ford (one of the most dangerous, statistically, in the Sierra). I took a group and crossed about 1-1/2 mile downstream. We had to make our way up the other side of the stream from the trail, to meet up with our group. Part way there, we were taking a break, and we spotted a pack floating in the water. We went over, and I was relieved not to see anyone attached. We pulled it out (INCREDIBLY hard, it must have weighed over 100 lbs.)

We looked through it, but found no ID. It was a woman's by the content, and part of a group (part of a tent). There was an axe, and it way July 4th, so we thought it had been there awile. We spread things out to dry, and figured we'd pick it up when we came back in a couple of days.

My schedule was different than the groups, and stayed in a couple of days after the group left, to bag peaks and explore. (didn't see another person). When I came back out, the contents were gone. A few miles down, was a bear box, where I stopped to rest, and found that a bunch of stuff from the pack had been stashed there. I left it, and hiked out. Just as I arrived at the trailhead, a ranger happened to drive up. I struck up a conversation, and asked if they had id'd who the pack belonged to, and he didn't know what I was talking about. I was a couple of days behind my group. He took contact info, and said I'd probably be contacted.

A few days later, I was at work, and got a call from a SEKI ranger. He wanted to know a couple of things: Who the people were on my group, and what happened to the gear?

I had signed onto this group through an organization, and only had first names and email addresses, no other contact info. I didn't know what had happened to the gear, but found out that the group had basically split it up and taken the stuff worth having (some took none).

Several days later, the chief law enforcement officer from SEKI called me, and was very *assertive* in wanting answers. He informed me that they were treating it preliminarily as a MURDER investigation, and that withholding information would be a felony. He was QUITE assertive.

I became a bit assertive back, stating that I was the one that DID make a report, and DID give my contact info, and DID NOT have any of the gear. I told him that this undoubtedly represented someone who fell while crossing the stream, who had lost the pack down the stream. He agreed that that was the most probable, but: no one had reported a pack missing. He mentioned that another possible scenario was that a couple had been in the backcountry, and that the boyfriend had murdered the girlfriend. I was floored. He said that they could not go into such an investigation, assuming the outcome that they would prefer, but had to consider all possiblities until the evidence proved otherwise, and had to treat it with that seriousness.

I facilitated him contacting the trip organizer, who had apparently not returned email. The LEO contacted all involved, and was apparently quite assertive in pursuading all to return all the gear. There was apparently something in the belongings that allowed them to identify the hiker. They were able to track her down, an exchange student from San Francisco, and she was fine. The LEO was nice enough to bother to call me and tell me the outcome.

I hope that what I illustrated with my example, was that from the LEO's perspective, they don't know what they are dealing with, until they have had a chance to thoroughly evaluate it. Until that time, they will tend to take a "worst case" scenario.

You may get stopped because you are talking on a cell phone, but I guarantee you that the officer will have his gun holster strap unsnapped as he approaches you.

I am not passing judgement on the good or the bad of it, just the reality of it. I agree with you, also, that the reality doesn't mean that I would not get involved in what I see as a problem situation.

So, some possible lessons to be learned:

Don't move or take stuff you find. Note the UTM on your GPS or triangulate with compass, possibly secure it if it looks like it will "move", possibly take a picture or two, and inform the first ranger you see. Even SAR folks, if they find a deceased person - even the one they're looking for - are required to consider the scene a crime scene until the authorities have a chance to investigate it. They too, are under strict protocol not to touch anything unless instructed to do so.

For anyone inclined to steal abondoned gear: Consider that you might actually steal evidence from a real crime scene. Would you want to have stolen property related to a murder? Probably not worth it. Also, how do you know it's actually abondoned? Think of some poor soul who's cached gear, depending on it being there, only to show up and it's all gone.

Also something that few folks consider: SAR teams make heavy use of tracking as a means of locating lost persons. Far too often all the tracks around a parked car or campsite are completely obliterated by well intentioned folks trampling around the area. This destroys what could have been extremely valuable clues: foot prints, direction of travel, and a track to follow the subject with. If you do come across something strange in the backcountry, try not to walk all around the site. If you need to check, say, if the tent is actually occupied, try taking the least invasive path possible, and use the same path to leave the area. Be aware of footprints, and if you see them - DON'T WALK ON THEM!

Look. The simple, honest answer that few want to acknowledge, the answer that your grandmother would have given you when you were a child is this: You may not know who the stuff belongs to, but you DO know that it doesn't belong to YOU.

Anything else is just a rationalization to snag someone else's cool gear and not feel guilty about it. Period.

In my case, what the guy who "took stuff and then gave it to me when we crossed paths" should have done INITIALLY was either to take the pack down to the Portal Store and report it found on the mountain OR left it where it was with the note for the Sheriff's Department still on it.

Do I appreciate it that he was honest when we happened to cross paths? Absolutely. And I thank him for that. But do I also think he was kind of a douchebag for rifling through a pack that didn't belong to him and cherrypicking the best stuff? Yes. I do. And I think it's even worse that there WAS a note on it saying that the Sheriffs were going to pick it up and he STILL tried to steal stuff. Along, by the way, with his client who he was guiding. (waaay to be a good example of how to be an outdoors man, Guideman.)

If he had taken the stuff down to the Portal, he would have gotten a reward. As it is, Eric is going to get something for his honesty throughout the whole situation and for recovering my sister's wallet and sending it to her.

My reward is simply being able to hold the fact that I climbed a mountain (to get my sister's lost gear back to her) over her head for the rest of time and especially on family holidays.

yep, that's theft. No gray area there. Getting caught, or admitting it doesn't make it better. The dude was stealing your sister's stuff.

Amen! I've heard of folks picking up rope, snow shoes, sleeping bags and trekking poles from various places on MT Whitney (mostly the MR). I always thought to myself, well, that's pretty lame of you, how do you know for certain it wasn't cached by someone. These items (other than the sleeping bag) are very often cached by hikers...it would make you stop and think before taking them, right? Guess not to some.

I always thought about taking along a pen, paper and plastic bag and at least writing a note on your items, indicating name and date and reason you left them. Perhaps that would prevent others (who really *do* know better) from taking them.