Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Permit process, my two cents.

Of course I was unsuccessful in the lottery and am complaining about it. The demand for Whitney permits is very high. The method used in the lottery allows for anyone or group to increase their odds of being drawn by submitting multiple applications under different names at minimal cost if successful. Non resident aliens (people who do not reside in the U.S.A.) have the same odds of being drawn for one of these coveted slots as residents who pay the taxes supporting the system. I recently wrote a letter to the U.S.F.S. encouraging a more sophisticated drawing system. If you feel the same way consider doing the same. The body of the letter is below.

Problem: Many wilderness areas have a very high demand for the available permits. For example; to hike Mount Whitney in California it is necessary to submit a permit reservation application to a lottery system in February of each year and hope that your application will be drawn from the pool while there is still available room. I have noted in the past that this hike is not only popular with U.S. residents it is also popular with tourists from other nations. The current lottery system and application does not differentiate between U.S. residents and non U.S. residents. Non U.S. residents have the same odds of being drawn for one of these coveted permits and pay the same fees as U.S. residents who’s taxes support the Federal Agencies, that supervise and govern the resource. I don’t think this is right.

Recommendation: I propose that only a specific number or none of the available permits be made available to non-U.S. resident aliens during the lottery and they be charged a higher fee for access to the desired area. The application form would have to be changed and each adult member of the group would have to be listed with some sort of government ID number (drivers license/ID card number). I am only suggesting this for areas with a demand for access similar to that of Mt. Whitney.

Precedent: Wild game is considered the property of the public and much of the pursuit (hunting) of wild game takes place on public lands. All States charge non resident hunters a much higher price for hunting licenses and tags than they charge their own residents. They also limit the number of tags for deer, antelope, elk, etc, available to those who are non residents of their State. This has been challenged in court on several occasions and the practice has been up held.

I see no reason why this type of system could not be implemented on a national level for those wilderness areas that see a demand similar to Mount Whitney. I don’t think U.S. residents & citizens should have to compete with foreigners who live outside of the U.S.A. for such a coveted national resource.

Just my Two Cents

I think your proposal has merit however I don't think it would ever be implemented in its present form. For one, the permit reservation system is a money maker for the FS and the domestic appeal alone for climbing Whitney is sure to sell it out every year. International attention is just icing on the cake.

Re. your proposal to have aliens pay more: I don't think that there are that many resident aliens who are keen on mountaineering and backpacking-or at least coming to some distant outpost in the middle of the California desert to do a hike. Personally, I've been in the backcountry for extended stays of at least a week, plus countless day hikes over the last 20 years and with the very seldom occurance I've really only come in contact with caucasian men an women.In 25 years of skiing I've probably seen 5 African Americans on the slopes! I don't think people in Michoacan are scheming up ways to trick the permit system so they can come to the US illegally and climb Whitney, especially when volcano's in Mexico put Whitney to shame.

Personally, I lived in Mt.Shasta for three years-you wanna talk about tourists! You won't see more Japanese tourists in any one place in America save for Disneyland. Mt. Shasta's climate and difficult terrain, though, make it inaccessable for most tourists. It would be nice if the MMWT wasn't so "paved". A rougher entry would discourage a lot of people.

Also, in Europe Americans aren't charged extra for a permit to climb Mt. Blanc or the Eigerwand or to hike the Haute Route. It's a set fee that all have to pay just like here. However the fee's in other countries are much higher than ours and that, in effect, keeps the people who shouldn't be on the mountain or trail back in their comfy hotel rooms. I would be happy to see the permit price for Mt. Whitney and the entire Sierra at least double and I think that the people who care about the condition of the back country would welcome a price increase too.

Why the obsession with Whitney? Whitney's easy access, trail all the way to the top, and its "highest in the lower 48" moniker all make it an attractive nuisance. If you want a +14,000 ft peak with easy access and a trail to the top, you can always hike California's third highest peak, White Mountain. You don't need a permit, parking's a breeze, no bears, its got a surreal high desert landscape, and (best of all) no crowds! Not even those pesky aliens (although the White Mountain landscape sure looks like a great place to land the "mothership"!).

As for permits and fees, I'd suggest the NFS simply tweak the current permit process based on simple supply/demand economics - fees for weekends cost more, and holiday weekends even more, and the peak mid-summer season adds still more. That allows everyone to base their hiking decision on the value they place on getting to the top of Whitney at a certain time. All those who want to get up, but will go mid-week or during an off-peak period, can pay less. And no allowances for youth groups, charity climbs, no whining "its motivational for the kids;" they gotta learn "denial" is not just a river running through NE Africa.

It would take a few years to get it working properly, but its my opinion. And I'm not even charging two cents for it!

I think it's a bad idea. It basically turns tourism on its head. People from Europe and other countries who invest tidy sums to see our country (just like we do to see theirs) should not be limited in what they can see just because they are "foreigners". In fact, they most likely come here to see the biggies like Mt. Whitney, etc. rather than Joe's Famous Little Town in the middle of a cornfield somewhere.

I've never run into any such separate treatment toward "foreigners" during the times we've been in Europe, and I could see how doing it for Whitney or anywhere else in the U.S. could begin a tit-for-tat of ill will, in my opinion. I also think comparing mountains to wild game is comparing apples to oranges.

If such separate and more stringent treatment would ever be warranted at all (and I'm not sure that it is), it would probably better be directed toward those people (Americans or not) who have no respect for the mountain, who leave their trash on the mountain, and who generally disregard the normal "leave no trace" and other protocols the rest of us practice in an attempt to leave the mountain in as good or better condition than we found it.

CaT

Try Split mountain up behind big pine. A stunning 14,000'er. A rough hike up to Red Lake but once you are there a real gem. The access road though is a real bi%@h. Class 3 though.

So what you're proposing is that we put a guarded fence at the base of the switchback of Whitney Portal Road with a sign that reads "American's Only". Please. I don't see anything like that posted at any of the other great peaks of the world, so why should Whitney be restricted?

Now, someone else (Kurt, perhaps) can tell us whether permit fees are any more for foreigners at other peaks around the world, like Aconcagua/Everest/Mont Blanc. Fee increases or changes will only work if the money is appropriately invested by the USFS (like for Portal maintenance, see other threads on the board).

But basically, the "over-appreciation" of Whitney has led to a lottery system. We don't all win the lottery. There are so many adventures to be had out there, why focus so much angry attention to one peak?

-L

Sierra Stryder, please correct me if I am wrong, but I am not aware of any permit or fee requirements to climb mountains or hike trails in Europe. As far as I know National Parks have no entrance fees either. Kurt

Why screw with the lottery, period. If you are a day hiker, there isn't great demand for these permits during the February lottery. If you are a backpacker the other approaches are a lot more scenic and a lot less crowded...and from Horseshoe Meadow it can be done in the same amount of time if you are in reasonable shape.

There is no permit fee for Mt. Whitney. The fee is processing your reservation application. I've on Mt. Whitney via various routes, including the MMWT, 5 or 6 times in the last two year and haven't paid a penny to the Inyo.

Mt. Whitney is anything but a money maker. The $15 fee doesn't begin to cover the cost of issuance. Many of us do not pay this fee and then there are the people day hike to LPL and use the fishing pond who pay nothing but tax the trail and facilities.

It IS common practice in SE Asian countries to charge locals much less than tourists. I think the entry fee at Doi Inthanon National Park in Thailand was 10 TIMES more expensive for me, as a U.S. Passport holder than it was for my wife, who stills holds a Thai Passport.

This is also a common practice in Nepal regarding transportation services. I don't remember the specifics, but the price I paid for my Nepali Guide to fly to Lukla was significantly cheaper than my flight cost. (I don't know whether locals are required to pay any of the NP fees over there.)

Excuse the OT question..but did you take any photos flying into Lukla? Are they in any of your photo albums? As a pilot I've always been fascinated by "difficult" airports..and according to what I've seen and read, Lukla is an exceptionally interesting airport..

I'll look, but I think I was too scared at seeing the mountains on my side "closing" fast... they bank right pretty hard as they approach the airport and I was looking out the windows on the left side...

As a pilot, I think you'd love the flight in to Lukla... Dodging thuderheads, fantastic BIG mountain views, an upsloping landing strip, etc, etc, etc. Maybe you could convince them to let you have the right side seat at the front of the plane.

Edit: Here are links to some albums that have some photos from flights to Lukla. None have the specific view that you're looking for though.

http://piotrowski.smugmug.com/gallery/79973/4
http://piotrowski.smugmug.com/gallery/116862
http://piotrowski.smugmug.com/gallery/116862/88
http://piotrowski.smugmug.com/gallery/80255

I've always felt that we shouldn't have to pay anything to access public land and national parks or use public facilities (although obviously I do like the rest of us). The government, by definition, has a fundamental responsibility to take care of these lands for the people. This is what we pay taxes for. This is why we have a government. This is why we even have a country--it's the land!

Government agencies always say they are underfunded, yet look at all these instances of government waste:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Budget/wm839-list.cfm
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Budget/bg1840.cfm

How does the government just lose $25 billion? Even .005% (that's 5 thousandths of a percent folks) of that amount would be $1.25 million--more than enough to pay for taking out the trash at the Portal. The General Services Administration also subsidizes $300 billion (!!) in grants to 30,000 groups every single year. Many of these grants pay for all those stupid studies you hear on the news like "Caffeine, sleeplessness linked in teenagers,"Teenager drivers are more dangerous," "Most people who fall off cliffs, die."

I know the Forest Service and National Parks are underfunded and I feel for the employees, but that's not our fault. Someone up top is mismanaging everything and if you keep paying more (even with the best intentions of helping keep our natural resources), the government won't learn to use their funds more responsibly.

Hi Kurt,
Admittedly I haven't had the opportunity to do much hiking in Europe especially on the technical routes up the Eiger or Mont Blanc. Eight summers ago a buddy of mine went with a group to climb the Eiger and if memory serves me correct the permit fee for his group (6 or 8 people) was like $350. I think it was $350 for groups up to 10 people and then more if your group was larger.Broken up amongst 10 people that $350 fee would only be $35 per person. Still I think a doubling of fees would do a lot to fighting crowds on Whitney.
Recently (last year) I read an article on the Haute Route in Backpacker or Outside or one of those type magazines that talked about the Haute Route and 1) it's a very long wait for a permit and 2) the cost of the permit. It wasn't anything super expensive like say a $100 but it was definately more than the $15 that is charged to climb Whitney or Shasta. But because they put a such a limit on the number of people that can hike the route the area is kept pristine. Something the Inyo people could learn from!

As for Mont Blanc, I know that within the last year or two the mayor of Saint-Gervais(?) has either asked for a permit system to be put in place or has already succeeded and there is a permit system in place now.Don't know what the fees are though. With 30,000 people on Mont Blanc per year they definately need a permit system.

In regards to the National Parks in Europe, my Mom just got back from a three week trip to Austria, Switzerland, and France. She traveled with Mountain Travel Sobek. Don't know what the fees were but the leader had permits for the group with everyone's name on it whenever they went to a place that required a permit.
Sierra Stryder

Speaking of Europe, why can't we have a hut system in the Sierra like they do in the Alps? It could be done "with style" and it's rediculous that some Act prevents you from doing some of the simplest mechanical things. (Cutting a tree with a hand saw vs. a gas-powered chain saw? Very efficient use of limited human capital. Give me a break! Pure stupidity!)

Nov. through April, n. fork, pick another drainage.

What's more fair than a random drawing? Non-U.S. resident travellers are only here for a limited amount of time, they deserve their shot at it.

I've always wanted to bike or hike the 10th Mountain Division hut system in Colorado. I've heard it's one of the greatest things outdoor enthusiasts can do.
Any one done it?

Tim, when you said:
"I know the Forest Service and National Parks are underfunded and I feel for the employees, but that's not our fault."

Well.....yes it is. As long as we voters return to power the representatives that allow this to happen, it IS our fault. It is especially the fault of those people who do not vote at all.


"Someone up top is mismanaging everything and if you keep paying more (even with the best intentions of helping keep our natural resources), the government won't learn to use their funds more responsibly."

And, we have demonstrated that if you pay less, they won't learn to use the funds more responsibly, either. The funding spigot has fairly convincingly been shown to be an ineffective tool for fiscal management.

I've actually looked at the possibility of a hut system, specifically in the Edison lake-Florence Lake area. There are non-wilderness inholdings, established structures, access. There is no one there in the winter. When I've discussed this with USFS wilderness managers, they have had no opposition. The huts that we have in Ca....pear lake, Ostrander, are always booked to capacity. Seems like an opportunity.

We do have a minor system on the west side of Tahoe, owned by the Sierra Club.

I've not done, but have extensively looked at the 10th mtn div system, and it seems wonderful.

I know what you're trying to say Ken, but ultimately the responsibility has to lie with those who are doing the job. As voters, all we can do is vote someone into office on the good faith that they will do a good job. If they don't, then it is their fault. The buck has to stop somewhere. Besides, the vast majority of the government is made up of people who are hired or appointed, not elected. I bet most of the waste and blunders are due to this huge bureaucracy. The whole thing is just messed up.



This just shows you how messed up the government is. In a normal person's life, reducing funds is an excellent and effective tool for forcing fiscal responsibility because you have no choice but to be responsible.

All I have seen is that if you give the government more, they will just want more.

“Definitely ridiculous” that adequate toilet facilities at Trail Camp are not funded from current trail fees. I would gladly pay a few dollars more for this service…sorely needed too.
Wag Bags are not the answer here.