Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Whitney Portal conditions

just got back from another MR summit - trip report later.
felt a little disgusted on the portals. the main trash can by the trailhead was full. rather than use one of the many other cans available - people just started piling trash up near the full can. I am surprised the bears did not have a party Friday night. Saturday AM I watched a guy with his full bag of trash just set it on top of the pile and keep on walking.

(sorry to rant)



meanwhile this which was by the hiker campground was nearly empty - I checked

Tom..Please RANT!!! It is disgusting..what the heck is wrong with people! Do these people that are doing this not realize there are bears that live near this area? Do they not know there are other garbage dispensers that were not full? or are they just to lazy to walk to them? They can hike up Whitney but they can't walk to find a dispenser that is not full...This hits close to me with garbage and the bears getting into it..it happens in Tahoe a lot..people leaving their garbage out where the bears can get into it!

How often do they empty those dispensers? Huh..wonder why it was not emptied out...it is still no excuse for people to just do that.
I sure hope it was cleaned up before the bears got to it! Sorry another rant here!!!!

I agree but it looks like a temporary problem because one of the containers was duck-taped shut with the note "Do Not Use".

Also note that the working container was so full that the doors were partly open, which made it vulnerable to bears.

You know, I agree with Bob, though it is indicative of society theses days. They see that some other jerk has dropped trash next to the container because they are too frigging lazy to walk to another one, so they too do the same with the a--hole attitude, "others do it so I guess I will too." Yes, we can see that the one is so full it's popping open, but one would think that when they are trying to put in their trash and they see it is too full to close then they would abandon this container, make sure it remains locked, and go find another - that is if they care about the environment. Of course, these slobs show that they DON'T !!!!
No, I don't feel the ranting is unjust. People who litter, regardless of where, should be locked in a big stinking garbage bin and forced to stay there for some duration of time!
Now, I am ranting!

None of those abusing the trails and mountain are going to learn unless observers of this behavior start to speak up and let them know they are doing harm. I guess the political correctness crowd and the I don't want a confrontation crowd will find objection to speaking up.

Guess who will be the first to complain when the NFS shuts down these facilities for lack of funds to cleanup after these pigs.

maybe I should have confronted this one guy, or moved all the trash myself. I felt posting in this manner would reach more people with a positive message. a picture is worth a thousand words.

OBTW: when we arrived down the hill Saturday pm - the cleanup crew had been there. no overflowing trashcan and no extra unprotected piles

OBTW2 - onother fantastic day up the MR - looks like lots of people summited the last 2 days.


OBTW3 - Saturday afternoon saw the air lift helicopter doing a rescue at LBSL. today a friend(who had hiked up to UBSL) told me that he witnessed a guy fall about 10-20 feet and split his head open - hope he (or whoever was involved in rescue) is doing fine

Hey Tom -

Yes, that's pretty disgusting. I think part of the solution is to have more trash cans near the trailhead area itself. I know that when I'm focused on getting up the mountain my priorities are to 1) top off my water, 2) put any food/related items in a locker, and 3) hit the head as necessary, and then get on the trail quickly.

The last time I was there was June 7th. It was not very busy, so was easy to find a spot in front of the trailhead. When I ready to go, I couldn't find ANY trash cans within a 100 yards or so, so I stashed what little I had with my other stuff in bear locker. Granted, it was dark, and maybe I didn't look hard enough, but the only containers I could find were the Wagbag ones.

Kevin

This is as much the Inyo fault as the hikers and day users. You have to make easy for the know nothings. This mean more trash cans and more frequent pick ups.

I've always felt there were not enough trash cans or bear boxes in Whitney Portal.

Remember, this is the same Inyo National Forest that thinks it going to near 100% compliance with their WAG bag program.

wb, I don't know where you saw the 100% compliance.....in the EIR, I vaguely remember them saying 50%. Perhaps you could point to your source?

Do you really advocate giving up all personal responsibility to the gov't?

I agree with the viewpoints of those disgusted by the lack of responsibility of walking a few hundred feet.....or taking one's stuff off the Portal.

The Inyo does not have an endless pit of money, nor do any of the National Forests. One can talk about them expanding a service, when what they are actually planning are what services to cut, due to less budget this year, and even less budget next year (not counting inflation, which makes it even worse).

Ken,

It has been a while since I read the EIR and I will stipulate you are correct about 50% compliance. Could you tell me what is the justification for setting up a program that is doomed to failure? To my mind, that is what 50% compliance is.

I do not give up personal responsibility to the government at all but we pay taxes and fees; therefore, it is not unreasonable to expect a reasonable level of service. I would rather see addition bear boxes and trash cans in Whitney Portal than that monstrosity patio cover trailhead with its silly inaccurate signage, like telling people to call 911 on the MTTW and they might not be rescued.

It is how you use the money, too. In addition to the patio cover, you have too much building and restrooms at The Interagency Visitors Center. This building sees peak of only two to three months, the rest of the time it sits practically idle.

To my mind the Inyo has shirked its responsibility at Whitney Portal and MMWT as much as the idiots who leave their trash at those cans and their WAG bags in the wilderness. However, I expect more from professionals than I do neophyte day hikers, backpackers and campers.

Travis said:

Ken,

It has been a while since I read the EIR and I will stipulate you are correct about 50% compliance. Could you tell me what is the justification for setting up a program that is doomed to failure? To my mind, that is what 50% compliance is.
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---According to the EIR:
"However, after a few years with extensive education, visitors would likely become comfortable with the idea of packing out waste, and compliance would likely improve."

"With half of the hikers complying with the pack-it-out policy, between 10,000 and 15,000 people would still defecate on or in the ground per year, most likely concentrated near the trail and two major campsites and therefore near surface water. Extensive education would likely result in higher compliance rates."

I think that expecting any activity involving humans to achieve a 100% compliance rate upon starting, is expecting a lot. That is why we all never go over the speed limits, eh? What should we do about THAT?
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I do not give up personal responsibility to the government at all but we pay taxes and fees; therefore, it is not unreasonable to expect a reasonable level of service. I would rather see addition bear boxes and trash cans in Whitney Portal than that monstrosity patio cover trailhead with its silly inaccurate signage, like telling people to call 911 on the MTTW and they might not be rescued.
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----Well, that is not the choice. The "patio" is already there. If you advocate removing it, which services do you propose ending, to do it? If you advocate more bear boxes and trash cans, what services do you advocate ending? The Inyo is lucky they even have rangers. Several forest upon which I work, have none, no trail workers, almost no one in the field.

You talk about "reasonable". I think it is reasonable to expect people to walk 200 feet to dispose of trash, when a trash can is full. Proper disposal of trash is the LAW. Don't you advocate that people follow the law?

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It is how you use the money, too. In addition to the patio cover, you have too much building and restrooms at The Interagency Visitors Center. This building sees peak of only two to three months, the rest of the time it sits practically idle.
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---Wait a minute! Watch your logic! The portal only sees heavy use at certain times, too. But you want to have service coverage and cans that will be there 24/7. Can't have it both ways......

I don't know the specifics of the Visitor Center, but note that it serves several agencies, and as such, probably needs to be bigger than you might have for one. It is also the office location for the administrative people for the FS, and the offices where the rangers gather for meetings and activities.
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To my mind the Inyo has shirked its responsibility at Whitney Portal and MMWT as much as the idiots who leave their trash at those cans and their WAG bags in the wilderness. However, I expect more from professionals than I do neophyte day hikers, backpackers and campers.
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----My perspective is that when we expect more of Gov't, than we do of ourselves, we are doomed to failure. I cannot see the sense of trying to pander to people who will not walk 200 feet to dispose of trash properly...is that good use of your tax dollars?

Regarding the Wag Bags, I can wholeheartedly understand how people would not want to carry them any longer, thus leaving them in the container or????
Though, regarding the bags of trash - even if ALL the containers are full, why is it so difficult, such an inconvenience, to just place it in the trunk of their car / truck, and just take it home and easily deposit it into their dumpster? Seriously, I wonder about the idiotic, selfish, "me attitude" minds of some folks these days.

Ken,

How do you educate 10,000 to 15,000 people per year when you are short staffed and many of those working there are clueless about the wilderness? Unfortunately, you need nearly 100% compliance rates for a WAG Bag program to work. I guess the question the Inyo has to answer for itself is how many WAG bags left at Trail Camp are acceptable.

The opportunity cost of the patio cover and visitors center was things like trash cans and bear boxes. They were the choices the Inyo had at the time. They made those choices and once they are done you cannot change them.

I did not say what these folks did was reasonable but they did do what I expect folks to do who do not know a damn thing about the problems at Whitney Portal or campground etiquette. The Inyo knows who comes to Whitney Portal and it is in their best interest to provide an adequate amount trash cans and frequent trash removal so there are not problems like this on regular basis. You are a regular here and know the questions asked by the newbies and you've seen the "Whitney Follies" on the trail. When we go up the trail we prepare for the worst and hope for the best, I think the Inyo has got the latter down pat but is woefully lacking on the former.

Where exactly did I say I want coverage 24/7 in this posting? All I said they should have more cans and boxes or more frequent pick up based on who comes to the Portal. I have found over the years are more than enough cans and boxes in Horseshoe Meadow to accommodate hikers and campers, it would only make sense there are enough of both in WP.

I do not view it as pandering. I view as good management to have enough trash cans strategical placed and enough bear box space to accommodate those who come to the WP. Your view is like former Governor Gerry Brown's vis a vis freeway construction. If we don't build them they will not come.

Hey WB, I never was attacking you, and I apologize if that's what it seemed like. I cannot, however, make excuses for others. I really don't believe it's a matter of "educating" others. I truly and honestly feel it's just "common sense." Too many people just let their garbage fall, and when we start making excuses for them, I start feeling it's just like the liberal bleeding hearts who say "it's not my, his, her fault, I didn't know." THAT, is simply just turning a blind eye, and plainly put, NOT taking responsibility. There's nothing here regarding education. If people don't know, then they should not have left the busom of their mommy and daddy - plainly put. Of course, is it possible my expectations are too high? Maybe so, and if so I guess I'm the one who will suffer since I just can't seem to accept people who are careless, irresponsible, selfish and just plain dumb!

Greg,

I do not view any of this as attack. It is an exchange of opinions about a place we all love and want to see the best things for it.

This is our child and we all have opinions on how this child should be shown love and discipline. Sometimes the parents disagree on how this should be handled.

I believe what these folks have done is wrong and they do not have any excuses for leaving WAG Bags at TC or trash outside a can in WP. I, also, believe the forest service has to make it very easy the inexperienced, those who are experience hikers and backpackers with no WP experience and total newbies, to do the right thing. That means having a sufficient number of cans strategically located in Whitney to accommodate trash at peak times. This is a function of the number go cans, location and frequently trash service. I, also, believe if they are caught leaving the trash outside these cans they should be given the maximum fine.

Same goes with the WAG Bag Program, the FS has a responsibility to educate both the experienced newbies and the out and out newbies but a lack of knowledge does not excuse abhorrent behavior. If caught leaving their bags at TC these folks should be fined to the fullest extent.

It is my opinion you have to make it as easy as possible for people to do the right thing.

How do you educate 10,000 to 15,000 people per year when you are short staffed and many of those working there are clueless about the wilderness?

I would talk to those who have experience with using the same kind of system elsewhere, such as Shasta, Rainier, McKinley. I would put up as much information as I could, in a location on site, very visible, that stands out, that will attract the people who visit there....call it a "patio".

My experience when I was up there at the Portal for a week, was that a LOT of people visited the exhibition.

The opportunity cost of the patio cover and visitors center was things like trash cans and bear boxes. They were the choices the Inyo had at the time. They made those choices and once they are done you cannot change them.

Absolutely, which is why contrasting something that was done a decade ago (the planning and budgeting), to something that is a current problem is, in my view, an unreasonable comparison of choices.

I did not say what these folks did was reasonable but they did do what I expect folks to do who do not know a damn thing about the problems at Whitney Portal or campground etiquette.

The Inyo knows who comes to Whitney Portal and it is in their best interest to provide an adequate amount trash cans and frequent trash removal so there are not problems like this on regular basis.

I've been up there many times, and I've never seen this happen. I don't know if this IS a regular occurrance. So before we go firing the District Ranger, having Congress appropriating a billion dollars for trash cans, and installing them every three feet.....because the trash collector broke his leg that morning and couldn't come up (to speculate about the "Sh*t happens" part of life).....lets make sure we know the extent of the problem.


Where exactly did I say I want coverage 24/7 in this posting? All I said they should have more cans and boxes or more frequent pick up based on who comes to the Portal. I have found over the years are more than enough cans and boxes in Horseshoe Meadow to accommodate hikers and campers, it would only make sense there are enough of both in WP.

Oh, you don't understand that when you install those cans and boxes, they are there 24/7? Perhaps this is only a problem 10 days a year. You apparently don't like the "Patio", perhaps because of it's appearance (I don't), but I don't appreciate a nicely painted garbage can, either. Place what's needed, but no more.

I do not view it as pandering. I view as good management to have enough trash cans strategical placed and enough bear box space to accommodate those who come to the WP.

I agree with this viewpoint. However, where we may disagree is on how many there may need to be. I suspect that there are plenty right now. If so, I don't particularly want more of a very limited resource spent on a non-problem.

People occasionally drop litter in the street in front of my home. I am not particularly mad at the city for not providing convenient trash cans in front of my house, in spite of the fact that it happens from time to time, for 20 years.

How to improve the situation?

If you go to dump your trash and come upon a situation like in the first message, take your trash and another bag of trash that isn't yours to another trash can. You don't have to take all the trash that is piled up to improve the situation. And if by chance someone sees you, it might influence them to do the same.

I see that some boy scouts on a recent trip happened to pick up a number of folk's trash that was littering a section below trail crest where the two trails meet. One of the leaders stated they took as much as possible, but there was too much to take it all. I mean, really, what were these slobs (the ones who left their trash) thinking? Of course, my question is rather trivial and probably not even worth mentioning; HELL, we already know that answer - "THEY WEREN"T THINKING AND THEY PROBABLY NEVER DO or WILL!!!
Oh well, as Bob states, and it's a good mention; it goes something like this; "One good deed leads to another."

Wow, this is a greatly entertaining discussion.

There will always be people who will fail to do what they should. No amount of trash cans, bear boxes, or education is going to get 100% compliance from people who just don't care. At the same time, whether or not it is the responsibility of the forest service, the rangers, or the hikers to clean up other people's trash, the fact is that there is trash that needs to be cleaned up.

How many trash cans are "enough"? How much effort should be used forcing education down the throats of those who need it?

If there was someone who followed each hiker around and picked up any trash they dropped, sure the place would be clean, but it would defeat the purpose of going to a place like MW.

If there were no signs of civilization at all the portal would be a really beautiful place, but not for very long.

We have to accept that the number of visitors to MW that don't follow the rules is only going to continue growing in comparison to the number of us that do. And unfortunately no matter how the situation is handled it will always make it less enjoyable for those that remember how it used to be.

Ken,

I have stated I do not think the signage there is truthful or accurate, with the exception of the weather change sign it is not. The best sign ever to appear on that board was the "People Die Here" sign which appeared after a couple of people died from stupidity, glissading from Trail Crest without an axe to self arrest. It has the potential of being a fair tool not much more. At Mt. Whitney the education process has to start with the permit notification packet, then a conversation at IVC from someone knowledge, accurate and truthful signage at the trailhead and evening presentation by either a volunteer or a ranger...between July 1st and Labor Day.

I have been coming to WP for a decade and the crowds, trash and bear boxes have always been a problem between 7/1 and Mid-September in most years. I wrote letters of comment to Inyo about these things because I do care about this place.

Where did I call for cans ever three feet? Or the congress to appropriate billions and billions. All I've said is because this area see an inordinate about of neophyte traffic forest service should make it as easy as possible to do the right thing. Another bank of cans, about 10 to 12 more bear boxes...remember they pulled all the boxes out of the Hiker-in Campground.

The difference between trash dropped in front of your house and trash dropped in WP is there might be a dead bear because of the latter.