Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board If You Were the King of the MMWT...

mchiker’s comments are dead-on. One benefit of reading the PDF Ken provided is insight gained on what is involved in handling other people’s crap. The fundamental problem is the newly-minted All American idea that no one is responsible for his or her actions. The corollary is we are all entitled to ‘happiness’ and if that doesn’t happen it’s someone else’s fault.

The logical extension of much of the arguments above is installation of ADA ramps for the disabled on the MMWT. There is no unalienable right for every American to summit Whitney – it’s a privilege, not a right. I’m with mchiker – make it a wilderness: take the toilets out!

If you can die there, it’s wilderness. And there is indeed a slippery slope. Take some time and review Calif. US Rep. Pambo’s efforts to ‘improve’ the National Park System. Selling off land, ‘naming’ rights (wouldn’t it be easy to convert the Grand Canyon into a land fill if it were first re-named ‘Coca Cola Canyon’?), snow mobiles and other ‘carny improvements’. Full disclosure: I’m personally such a radical right winger that if Genghis Khan were standing beside me he’d look like Nancy Pelosi. But when it comes to the wilderness, give no ground.

Ya , i'm with MChiker. Like i said "wow you guy's are realy somthing ". The fact is you can have what ever kind of experance you want on whitney trail. and 1 more thing, would like some cheese with your whine?

John Muir climbed Whitney starting at Independence.

Now there's a precedent.

Yes, I've been up Whitney a dozen times over the last 30 years (that also shows I'm not a one-mountain hiker). I've hiked the Muir Trail and half the Pacific Crest.

My first trip up Whitney required no permit, just signing a register at the old trailhead. The crowds were about what they are today on a busy weekend.

My point is not that I want more toilets, but I think Whitney is unique and could be managed to let more climb when they want. Just my opinion.

As demand grows and quotas are cut, consider how those quotas might be filled. Today it's a lottery open to all who can plan ahead. Tomorrow, as was discussed in the past, it could be "Oh, you've been here before. Sorry. Next."

Mchiker,

If I'm not mistaken, this land belongs to all of us, therefore, it is our right and responsibility to make comments about how it is run. I have written the Inyo on various ocassions with both positive and negative comments and offering suggestions how to make the Mt. Whitney experience better for all.

The Inyo National Forest, SEKI and Yosemite sent upwards of 220 people towards Mt. Whitney on a daily basis between the 4th and Labor Day, not the 160 you mention. For many of these people it will be their first backpack or day hike and most of these people will find the pack it out ethos to be aberrant, thus, they will find a place other than a bag to do their business. I seen enough here to know they will not get the compliance rate necessary to close the toilets and keep the area pristine. One of the clues was seeing a 6 person tent with 4 mil clear visqueen being utilized as a fly at Trail Camp.

Wilderness feel on the MMWT? The only time I feel it is when I go up the trail in the late fall, winter and early spring when there are not any crowds and the trash and the wear and tear of the trail is covered by snow. During the summer the MMWT is a trail that I have to utilize to get back to civilization from the far side of the Sierra Crest. I have never spent a night at Trail Camp or Outpost Camp. Monday was probably the key to your "Wilderness" experience, I have seen huge crowds on the MMWT on weekends in late September.

Funny no one's mentioned breaking rules or think that there is going to be wilderness experience if you come in between the 4th and end of September. What has been stated is it is not wilderness, it has the toilets, it has an overbundance of signage, it has recepticals for WAG Bags, private areas to defecate and it is micromanaged by the FS.

What I want is for the trail to continue to have its current level of access. I do not see that happening when the forest service and finally closes the toilets and make WAG bags mandatory.

My earlier comments may have been harsh and offensive so first, apologies to AsABat and wbtravis5152 (members I greatly respect). I have to confess to a certain amount of anger: give me a second to explain why.

Also, sorry about the length of this post.

I grew up on the streets of a big eastern city. A lucky experience then (40 years ago) had me in the midst of the Allegheny National Forest for a short time, a life changing event. At the time, there was still a reasonable presence of old growth hardwoods and some of this forest would have qualified as wilderness by anyone’s definition. Western forests notwithstanding, there is something beautiful, majestic and unique about an old growth hardwood forest.

In late July I wanted my daughter and her young cousins to experience it. A preview of what would come next was discussions and emails with NPS managers who warned me that what was once a massive forest covering millions of acres, and even a sizable stand in 1911-1923 when federal protection was initiated, was essentially gone. This continued even after the land went under federal management. It took a lot of research and effort to isolate exactly what’s left.

We visited one of the famous stands (Hearts Content) only to find NO old growth trees remaining. Instead, we found a small, diseased stand of secondary and tertiary growth softwoods, poorly maintained trails, trash, picnic benches, pit latrines, etc. The preserved area appeared too small to support a forest, so the results were inevitable. I wondered aloud why a volunteer group hadn’t done something to at least attempt to improve the trails and soon answered my own question: no self-respecting group of volunteers would put lipstick on this pig and legitimize this fiasco. I didn’t get a chance to visit the remaining stand (Tionesta) so possible some of the old forest might still remain. But according to the Rangers it is disappearing fast. That means someone standing there heartbroken that his daughter couldn’t see what was once a wonder of nature, would then have to go 66o miles to the NE to the Adirondacks, or 550 miles to the SE to the Smokies and hope that some of that remained. Think about it, a circle with a 1200 mile circumference wherein everything that had been is gone. In its place: rusted out crappy mobile homes, clapboard hunting cottages, large propane canisters, etc.

What happened? Oil and gas development. Logging – 75% of the worlds cherry wood comes from this forest, logged by 2 companies – one German, the other Japanese. Why did it happen? Political corruption mainly at the local level, but also state and national levels. And no, not even Karl Rove could have planned this, 80+ years in the making – western PA is a bastion of Democrat politics and this is where most of the blame lies in this particular case. The fact is graft and corruption know no party affiliation. I would have at least preferred that the graft had been spread to some “Kenny-boys” or other pasty white guys from the good old US of A, but I guess the foreigners are a bit more lavish and better at hiding the money trail.

So when it comes to questions like the ones raised in this thread, I’ve fallen to simple principles – WWTD – “what would Teddy (Roosevelt) do?”. Any change that leads in the direction of less wilderness is bad. Any change that leads in the direction of more wilderness is good. No compromises. I predict the first McDonalds constructed on Lone Pine Lake will be “…for the children…”, just like Pambo’s latest proposed land sale was supposed to be for the schools.

Gregf,

What this thread is about is making Whitney Portal and the MMWT a better place. Generally, I'd agree with your position, make it a damn wilderness. However, that is like putting the genie back into the bottle. The MMWT will never be wilderness again, unless you serverely restrict traffic. This is something no one here wants because of selfish desires and, for some us, wanting to see the town of Lone Pine to survive.

There will always be more demand for than supply of permits for this trail. The rubber meet the road question is what are the best ways to maximize use and minimize deliterous impact, errosion of the trail is going to happen no matter what you do with current hiker volume.

So how can you limit impact short of lowering quotas? Increase fees for the MMWT, this way people will think long and hard about doing this peak multiple times a year thus getting more people on the trail making the base of people caring for this place grow. Decrease MWWT backpack permit while increasing those from the satellite trailheads and having the forest service promote this alternative. Many of us who utilize these trails will not camp along the MWWT when exiting because we want to maintain our feeling of the wilderness experience. As I have mentioned, I have never camped at either Outpost Camp or Trail Camp, although I have planned to do so on a couple of ocassions. This most likely lessen the use of the toilets along the trail, since it is the backpackers who use the latrines.

I do not feel a mandatory WAG will work on the MWWT when you consider the amount newbies and one and doners who utilize this trail, most of whom are clueless about LNT. This is why I and others feel the trail should be cherry stemmed, which would allow for a workable sanitation system. The current system, to my mind, is like being slightly pregnant.

wbtravis5152 - we agree on a lot. But the reason why I predict a Mickey D's on Lone Pine Lake is that I wouldn't expect others to generally agrees with the simple (and possibly simple minded) approach - WWTD?

Using that filter - 'what would Teddy do?' - the answers are simple: YES to higher fees, higher fines for non-compliance, WAG bags, SAR fees. NO to toilets, service roads, helicopters, Mickey D's, use of taxpayer money to do everything up to and including wiping the bums of irresponsible people.

The article Steve C just posted from the Fresno newspapers seems to indicate that there is good WAG bag compliance: ~80% based on volume. The problem is the minority. Then the question becomes protecting the "rights" of an irresponsible minority. The Rangers told me 2 months ago that an extraordinary number of newcomers, when faced with WAG bags, simple don't 'go'. But even if they pooped flat on the nearest slab it would be far more sanitary than the outhouse hepatitis soup caldrons. If you build it, they will come.

The problem with any compromise to what Teddy did is that there are always a million (usually $) reasons to do something else. It's just like border security - the 87 point plan favored by the politicians probably includes congressional pay raises and how many more bridges to nowhere? Stopping illegal border crossing is far simpler than that and everyone knows it. Possibly I'm being too simple minded about this...

random question- a bunch of us on our Whitney hike were trying to figure out what "WAG" stood for... can someone enlighten me?

Waste Alleviation & Gelling

thanks- we had like 50 different guesses, and that was not one of them...

No prob.
Somehow "gelling" and poop just don't draw a connection, do they?

Gregf,

Damn, Mickey D's a LPL...I've been waiting for a Hard Rock Cafe at Guitar Lake.

Fines for non compliance are impossible since the people patrolling the trail are not sworn officers. I do agree with fines...I've only heard on two people being fined in the whole of the Sierra in all the years I've backpacked. One was a convoluted tale.

I've heard the 80% compliance rate for WAG bag usage after the first season of the voluntary program. I would like to know how they came up with that number, I do doubt its accuracy. However, WAG Bag program is voluntary at this time. 20% non compliance on this trail is huge and my guess the non compliance will grow when and if this program becomes mandatory. And what happens if they take out the toilets, the privacy stations and WAG bag recepticals at Trail Camp, which is what should happen since this is designated wilderness.

If they go on the slab as you say, the hepititis and bacteria eventually will end up in Lone Pine Creek making water quality along the trail a big issue. I'm sure LA DWP will not like seeing the water they stole fair and square fouled by virus and higher bacteria levels than what we are currently seeing.

wbtravis5152 - I thought there was some type of citiation the Rangers could issue...

In any case, if the compliance problem could be solved and the irresponsible behavior minimized, I don't think even a severe regime would amount to reduced traffic. A lot of people are turned away, by definition, through the quota system.

In fact if compliance became a very small problem, raise the quotas accordingly. That creates a win-win-win to include Lone Pine, as well.

Gregf,

You are wishing. Compliance will not happen on this trail because of the high percentage of newbies, one and doners and don't want to know anything about the woods'ers.

I've offered some pragmatic suggestions to keep this areas quotas as they are. The current ranger for this area was quoted in the Los Angeles Times a few years back saying he wanted to turn this place into Shasta...where the traffic is minimal compared to the Mr. Whitney Trail. #1 on his list was killing the solar latrines.

The demand for permits to hike Mt. Whitney during the middle of hiking season, the 4th to Labor Day weekend, will dramatically exceed demand, there are usually 3 or 4 backpacking permits left after the lottery in this time frame. If the Inyo decides to make WAG mandatory, does away with the toilets, privacy stations and WAG recepticals...it ain't just going in a bag it's carrying the bag for a couple of days, and reclaims the area as wilderness the compliance rate will fall, bacteria levels in Lone Pine Creek will rise and permit quotas will decrease. Just read the Human Waste EIR...there is not a word in there about the economic impact of all this on Lone Pine.

wbtravis5152 - if the fines and penalties were high enough and the enforcement serious, people would comply. And / or, the antisocial and irresponsible would be turned away and replaced by people of more gentler and respectful nature.

Here's the story on enforcement to show you the folly of it. In 2002, I met a guy at the tarns above Guitar Lake, who when entering the forest gave a seasonal ranger an extreme hard time and would not show her his permit. When exiting at Whitney Portal this ranger reported him exiting and they made sure they had a sworn ranger at the trailhead to issue him a citation. The only reason this guy is fined is a confluence of factors, if one is missing this guy gets off scot free.

In June, I camped at Chicken Spring Lake. Prior to entering the forest I was told there were no campfires allowed at the lake...something I knew. I am sure the two other groups at the lake that weekend were told the same thing but they chose to have fires...one of which raged the entire night. How do you should the forest service is going to make these people comply based on the previous tale?

The current system is one of voluntary compliance with lip service to fines...see the warnings and not tickets on the vehicles with food and coolers visible at Whitney Portal.

Bob R...I must have missed it when I read the report or thought it was given short shrift. My guess on what is going to happen is the voluntary WAG program will become mandatory. You are much closer to all this than I am. Com'on Bob, give us the skinny!

if a bear named Richard poops in a wilderness area and no-one is around to feed the birdies, is it still a wilderness area, or should we worry about quotas, for our own selfish reasons, as we speed through that wilderness... or give it a rest

Having WAGed for years, I find it hard to imagine the problem w/ mandatory WAG. Climb The Grand in WY. Mandatory there. My kids get a kick knowing they're "Leaving No Trace."

Alpinist,

Your kids have a roll model but what about all the newbies and one and doners many of whom could not care less about LNT ethics. A 20% non-compliance rate in Wyoming is not a big deal but that rate on the MMWT is upwards to 40 people a day defecating above the tree line on granite.

If this place is going to be wilderness the laterines, privacy stations and WAG recepticals at Trail Camp and Outpost Camp have to go. The pertinent question is what will be the compliance rate be if the current system is eliminated.