Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board drinking too much water on the trail

Hi, all.
I used to advise folks on the Whitney trail and other Sierra locales to drink as much water and energy fluids as possible. While dehydration is surely a common problem, especially at higher altitudes, my advice was dead wrong. Here's why:

www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-marathon18apr18,1,5031582.story?coll=la-headlines-health

Got any opinions or additional details?

This topic has been discussed recently on this board. The thread is:

http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002895

I beleive it was spawned from a similar article from another source.

If you would like to see other discussions on this board about this subject, search on AMS. There are numerous postings.

Did anyone else notice that one of the women quoted in the Los Angeles Times article was named Whitney?

I think that it is easy for newbies to drink too much water. I normally only consume only about 4-6 liters during a one day summit. I've summited four times without any difficulties. That might be a little light for most people but it works for me. Also, I find that just plain water and modest amounts of solid food every 1-1 1/2 hours works better for me than sports drink. The best approach to figuring this out for yourself is to do some long training hikes and get a sense of what your body needs.

Hi, Larry.

CaT

OTOH, Rick, I think that newbies on the whole are much more likely to drink too little water than to drink too much. I say this based both on observation of newbies, and on having once been a newbie myself (although I don't want to think about how many decades ago that was).

I also think that non-newbies on the whole are more likely to drink too little water than to drink too much, also based both on observation of non-newbies and on being a non-newbie myself.

Getting a sense of what your body needs as you suggest is the best approach, but I do think it is wrong to focus much on avoiding too much water, aside from common sense of not forcing down absurd amounts. I think it is better to focus on getting enough water, and getting enough sodium. Do those things, and there is no real concern about either dehydration or hyponatremia.

I think it is a whole lot easier to manage proper hydration on a hike where you are willing to stop occasionally and smell the flowers than in a marathon where you don't want to stop, so I don't think it should be a really big deal. People in marathons not only don't stop to smell the flowers, they don't stop to water them as much, so it is harder to monitor pee, which makes monitoring hydration levels a lot easier.

The following simple stuff is what works for me:

1) Start out well hydrated, not by forcing down a gallon of liquid, but by drinking a reasonable amount, and monitoring pee to see that you are well hydrated.

2) Continue to hydrate on the hike, but don't force down much more than you feel you need. Monitor pee, and don't bother forcing anything down if the pee is pretty clear, but force some down if the pee is too dark.

3) Don't just drink water, don't just drink water and/or sports drinks, do something to replace sodium on the trip. Even if food is not appealing, do get something down on occasion for replenishing salt (and for some energy).

After all these decades, my biggest problem is still making sure I get enough water, not avoiding getting too much. Being well (by not over) hydrated at the start is, for me, the biggest factor in avoiding dehyration by the end of a long hike. Like you, 4-6 liters does it for me for a one day Whitney trip, if I am well, but not over, hydrated at the start, and I usually make 1 or 2 of those a sports drink. But to even get my 4-6, I need to remember to keep drinking, and I need to remember to hydrate beforehand. But everyone is different, and should use common sense in figuring out their needs.

BTW, back in the early 70's, when we were decades away from having heard of hyponatremia, my father liked to take little salt packets from restaurants (the ones with the dual cylinders) to put in our daypacks, to take some pure salt during the hike, to "replenish what we had lost in sweat." Maybe Dad wasn't totally out to lunch, he just didn't know we also needed to replenish what we flushed out with the water we were drinking.

I know I mentioned it on the other post, but don't rely solely on sodium. Potassium balance is probably the most important factor. Here's just a bit of info:

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Along with sodium, potassium regulates the water balance and the acid-base balance in the blood and tissues.  Potassium enters the cell more readily than does sodium and instigates the brief sodium-potassium exchange across the cell membranes.  In the nerve cells, this sodium-potassium flux generates the electrical potential that aids the conduction of nerve impulses.  When potassium leaves the cell, it changes the membrane potential and allows the nerve impulse to progress.  This electrical potential gradient, created by the "sodium-potassium pump," helps generate muscle contractions, and regulates the heartbeat.

Maintaining consistent levels of potassium in the blood and cells is vital to body function.  Deficiency of potassium is much more common. Problems associated with low potassium levels include hypertension, fatigue, and depression and other mood changes.  Many factors reduce body levels of potassium. Heat waves and profuse sweating can cause potassium loss and lead to dehydration, with potassium leaving the cells along with sodium and being lost in the urine.  People who consume excess sodium or lots of sugar may also become low in potassium.  Fatigue is the most common symptom, muscle weakness, slow reflexes, dry skin or acne and may progress to nervous disorders, insomnia, slow or irregular heartbeat, and loss of gastrointestinal tone.    There can be serious muscle weakness, bone fragility, central nervous system changes &  decreased heart rate.

When we perspire a great deal, we should replace our fluids with orange juice or vegetable juice containing potassium rather than just taking salt tablets.  The kidneys are the chief regulators of our body potassium, keeping the blood levels steady even with wide variation in intake.  Alcohol, coffee, (and caffeine drinks), sugar, and diuretic drugs, however, cause potassium losses and can contribute to lowering the blood potassium.

Potassium is found in a wide range of foods. Many fruits and vegetables are high in potassium and low in sodium. Most of the potassium is lost when processing or canning foods, while less is lost from frozen fruits or vegetables.   Leafy green vegetables such as spinach, parsley, and lettuce, as well as broccoli, peas, lima beans, tomatoes, and potatoes, especially the skins, all have significant levels of potassium.  Fruits that contain this mineral include oranges and other citrus fruits, bananas, apples, avocados, raisins, and apricots, (particularly dried). Whole grains, wheat germ, seeds, and nuts are high-potassium foods.  Fish such as flounder, salmon, sardines, and cod are rich in potassium, and many meat foods contain even more potassium than sodium, although they often have additional sodium added as salt. One excellent source is coconut water, there is over 400mg in a 250ml tetra pak.

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Again, knowing how your body reacts to extended exercise, altitude change and all the myriad possible demands that you'll encounter on an excursion is key. I'm probably preaching to the choir for most of you, but there are probably a few Napoleon Dynamites out there who could save themselves from a world of hurt.

I normally don't eat chips, but on a hike like Mt. Whitney I'll take along either a small bag of ruffles potato chips or fritos. Not too much but just enough to keep your carbs and salt up. I also use bagels and PBJs a lot for nutrition. Normally at altitude I lose my taste for sweets, but salt and fat still hold an appeal. I also carry a couple of packs of goo and some bars and packaged sports drink powders just in case I bonk on the way down. Although I'm usually pretty tired at the end, I really do enjoy Doug's burgers, fries and 3-4 beers at the end of the trail. Again, maybe not for everybody, but it sure works for me.

In case any other sea-level runners are reading this string...during the hour prior to the RT Whitney run I consume ~1L of salted Kool-Aid, 3-4 Powerbars with peanut-butter. 4x-5x during the RT, I re-fill and drink from 2 6-oz strap on mini-bottles.

In other words, sbslowpoke, using the type of trail mix I have used for the last 20 or 25 years is going to do me some good, since it has raisins, dried aprocots, seeds, and nuts, good sources of potassium, and mixing in a sports drink that has potassium is also a good idea.

But meanwhile, although your information does indicate that it is important to take in potassium when sweating a lot, I don't see anything that would connect low potassium levels to hyponatremia, as opposed to fatigue.

I see what you have posted saying, "Fatigue is the most common symptom, muscle weakness, slow reflexes, dry skin or acne and may progress to nervous disorders, insomnia, slow or irregular heartbeat, and loss of gastrointestinal tone." I don't, however, see anything suggesting that low potassium will lead to something of the potentially deadly nature of hyponatremia, that from what I read is a sodium problem.

I have always thought that things like the problem with low potassium is why sports drinks are what they are, to most especially help with the fatigue that results from the loss of electrolytes. The basic Gatorade advancement back in the 1960's (even if it did taste like piss back then) was to add some carbohydrates, and electrolyte replacement, potassium, magnesium, calcium, sodium, into the fluid replacement. As I understand it, the carbohydrates, sodium, and potassium also help move the fluid into the muscles, which is where you want it when exerting them.

From what I have read, I still think that, unless you are both really forcing more liquid than you need and are ignoring sodium replacement, the real danger being discussed, hyponatremia from too much water, is not a problem, regardless of potassium, but what do I know, I'm not doctor. Worrying very much about getting too much fluid is worrying about the wrong thing, IMO.

But I do absolutely agree that if you want a pleasant day hike up and down Whitney, don't ignore potassium replacement, either (although again, I'm not a doctor, so what do I know).

Hi Bob,
My point on hyponatremia was two-pronged:
a) electrolyte balance is primarily between sodium (extracellular) and potassium (intracellular)---you can read all about it here: http://www.nephrologychannel.com/electrolytes/index.shtml. Most people get plenty of sodium in their diets but neglect the potassium; I was just pointing out that if novices start cutting back on water and loading up on the Morton's, they may find themselves going too far the other way (hypernatremia).

and

b) Is it just me or are we living in a culture of fear? Have any of us EVER worried about drinking too much water when hiking or climbing?! The way that news story and subsequent posts were presented made it seem like we'd all bloat and die.

Basically, if we don't know how our bodies react to exertion and aren't in tune with what combinations of foods we need to climb this (or any other) mountain, we probably shouldn't be worrying about the exact number of switchbacks or if we're going to have cell phone reception on the summit....

Just two more cents.

I am sure that drinking too much water is possible while you are hiking up to Mt. Whitney.

Based on my own experience, I would venture to say that being dehydrated is much more common. I still think Bob R. said it well. Stop once an hour for a small rest stop, eat something and drink a little.

So strive to end up in the middle. Drink enough to not be thirsty but don't overdo it. On a long 13-15 hour hiking day you are not going to overdo it by drinking 4-6 quarts of water.

The water calculator says a 170 pound person exercising for 1 hour a day should strive for about 120 ounces of water per day...about 4 quarts. A 1 day Whitney hike is certainly more then 1 hour of exercise

For further reading about running, too much water and sports drinks see.

http://www.mt-whitney.info/viewtopic.php?t=497

My take is a little different.

What we seem to be discussing is information on a sport DIFFERENT than running. Perhaps there are similarities enough to be able to extrapolate, and perhaps not.

Inasmuch as there are no studies that I know of in hikers/climbers, I would say that we need to look at the best information available, which is personal experiences.

My personal experiences with climbers with hyponatremia: none.
Reports from WPS about climbers with hyponatremia: none.
SAR reports from ANY SAR group about rescues involving hyponatremia: none.

On the other hand, experience of the above with dehydrated climbers/hikers: a daily experience.

So, while interesting, I think it still is good advice to tell people to drink, drink, drink. They won't, anyway.

I tend to agree with Ken.

I don't think you see a significant number of runners (in races) with dehydration problems for distances up to a marathon. The advice given to runners has alays been "drink, drink, drink." Water is provided at distance races. That worked well in the old days because almost everyone in marathon races was running under 4 hours and there weren't that many stops. No one had time to everindulge. These days, half the field might be over 5 hours and there are more stops. More people have time and opportunity to drink up. Add to that mix a 90 pound woman erring on the wet side of instructions for consumption aimed at a 180 pound man and you have the potential for real problems.

With hiking, people tend to eat as well as drink, so electrolyte balance problems don't tend to be as bad. On the other hand, water is not always supplied -- it depends on the vagaries of nature. The opportunity to run short on water is greater than in running a race.

I specified "in races" in my comments on running. Stories of dehydration in, say, Grand Canyon runners are more common because it is basically equivalent to desert hiking.

For what it's worth, on a recent JMT trip I stopped every half hour and drank a half litre of water. No problems (other than having to stop to pee a lot). My situation was rather unusual: I woke up at 4:00 AM almost exactly half way from Yosemite (Piute Canyon trail crossing) with kidney-stone pain. I make these things for a hobby (I don't recommend it), and I knew what I was feeling. I thought the trip was over, but after a couple of hours of *serious* drinking, the pain left. Seeing the handwriting on the wall, I went to the system of walk for 30 min., drink half of a 1-litre bottle, repeat, and finished the trail with no further problems. Counting breakfast, lunch, and dinner, I was doing about 10 litres per day, which come to think of it isn't really that much.

sbslowpoke, I pretty much agree with you.

You say, "I was just pointing out that if novices start cutting back on water and loading up on the Morton's, they may find themselves going too far the other way (hypernatremia)." It is nice for people to know that it is a bad idea to drown themselves in water, especially without any electrolyte replacement, including sodium, but I am disturbed by the idea of suggesting that people cut back on water, since I think that dehydration is a more serious problem. For hikers otherwise behaving normally (actually snacking on any of the common trail foods that provide some salt and potassium along with drinking even large amounts of water), from what I read, I don't see hyponatremia as a serious problem, so I think it is bad to get people worried about drinking too much water.

"Is it just me or are we living in a culture of fear? Have any of us EVER worried about drinking too much water when hiking or climbing?! The way that news story and subsequent posts were presented made it seem like we'd all bloat and die." No, it is not just you. We are living in a culture of fear. The thing most likely to kill me tomorrow is a car accident, yet most of us don't fear that, yet we fear all sorts of other things that the media publicizes that are much less likely to harm us than driving or riding in a car. BTW, the only people I personally know who were killed or seriously hurt on a hiking trip were killed or seriously hurt in car accidents.

I agree that for people taking 6 hours to run a marathon in heat where they are drinking a lot and eating nothing, and not monitoring their pee very well, hyponatremia is something worth knowing about. For hikers who routinely eat something as well as drink and pee along the trail, I don't see why it is even an issue.

But since it gets made an issue (and an occasional hiker has suffered from hyponatremia), I'll stick to my common sense advice. If your pee isn't clear, force fluids. If you have clear pee, drink when you feel like it. In either event, get some energy food and electrolyte replacement when hiking. Follow these rules, and you don't have to worry about either dehydration or hyponatremia.

Hi Bob,
Yes, we're in agreement. The thing that irked me was the post that started this thread (at the top):

"Hi, all.
I used to advise folks on the Whitney trail and other Sierra locales to drink as much water and energy fluids as possible. While dehydration is surely a common problem, especially at higher altitudes, my advice was dead wrong. Here's why:..."

As if this one flawed study was justifying a complete reversal in common sense. (I guess it was the "dead wrong" that seemed too alarmist.)

Regardless, I'll be poking along the Main trail in a month (and was planning on being up there this weekend, but work needs to come first, unfortunately), so if anyone wants to discuss it further, we can do that out in the open---preferably at 10,000+ feet.

BUT WHAT I REALLY WANT TO KNOW is how soon I can get a burger at the Portal store...

Cheers.

I think before I characterized the LA Times article as being a "flawed study", I would examine the credentials of the author. Carol Krukoff is widedly published and does have some expertise in exercise physiology. Her husband is a Cardiologist at Duke University Medical Center.

I do not have an opinion one way or the other about her conclusions, the accuracy of her reporting or how they apply to hiking but I'm sure she is more qualified than most people posting on this board to comment about the subject.

I think she tried to relate a personal experience with what appears on the surface to be some facts supported by sources on a subject that people should be aware of. If having more information on a subject is fear mongering, then let's turn off the computers and get rid of this chat room.

I'm not referring to the Times article as flawed. If you review the universe and methodology of how the study itself was conducted (and on whom) you'll see how any interpretations on other groups (out of shape, first time hikers hoping to "bag" Whitney on a dayhike, for example) would be dubious at best.

I will take your advice and turn off the computer, however, since all this talk about too much water reminds me it's happy hour. (Perhaps there should be a study on the correlation between frosty martinis and the need for trekking poles...)

Cheers (and how).

I wonder if the amount of water you need is effected by relative humidity, temp,and altitude.
Does your system go through more water during exercise in the hot arid high desert or the low muggy east coast where sweating doesn't effectivly cool you down?