Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Worst-ever hiking etiquette!

Spent Thanksgiving at Phantom Ranch at the Grand Canyon and when I was hiking back out, I encountered the worst-ever hiking etiquette I've ever seen in 32 years hitting the trail. If anyone can beat this, please post.

A little above the 3 Mile House on the Bright Angel Trail, I encountered two Japanese tourists. They spoke Japanese. Both were NOT hikers, as they were dressed in street clothes and had high heels on. They were in their early 20's.

I was moving along at a very fast clip because I wanted to beat my p.r. in time coming up from Phantom Ranch. These girls were in front of me. They would not yield for several switchbacks and I was right on their heels. They would do a little jog when I was walking right up their backside, in order to stay in front of me. My pace was still faster than their jog. Twice, I politely asked, "May I pass?" I assume they spoke English, but they would not let me pass.

Then, incredibly, the two girls held hands and with their other arms, they stretched out and BLOCKED the trail with their outstretched arms. It looked like they were trying to fly-- you know, with your arms stretched out. This literally blocked the whole trail. This went on for about 5 minutes and I was sick and tired of it and they were slowly me down greatly. Finally, frustrated as could be, I took my hand and forcibly pulled down the one girls outstretched arm and shoved past them. Then, they became unhinged and tried everything they could to pass me, including tip toe-ing on the icy outside of the trail. They couldn't manage passing me and after a few minutes, exhausted and crippled by their high heels, they fell back.

I know we can all make excuses, "well, they're just tourists, not hikers.. they are from a different culture... didn't know better." I'm sorry, but I can't make excuses for their ridiculous behavior. Can anyone top this in terms of trail rudeness? This takes the cake for me.

This is nothing compared to what I have gotten! Hiking up a trail near Sedona, AZ, I pulled up on a older group, probably mostly retired. Slow, of course, but they had a similar attitude. Don't let him pass! The trail was overgrown, and there wasn't a chance of passing. They finally stopped, after maybe ten minutes, and despite the situation being obvious, I had to swipe through the brush to get by them.

I haven't hiked that much in AZ, but maybe this is the custom, there. Many novice hikers see this all as a "race," where they have to beat you to the top! Being mostly a solo hiker, I stand aside for groups larger than me. Supposedly, there is a right-of-way established, although I forget what the "rules" of the trail are.

One of my most obnoxious encounters was in the Northern Yosemite wilderness, where a large group of backpackers, many teens, began a fire and tossed in an accumulation of plastic wrappers for their freeze-dried food. This emits toxic and sickening smoke, and it chanced that I had camped downwind of this fire pit. I think I moved to avoid this, but they continued with their loud shouting and horrible behavior throughout much of the evening.

And this is all nothing compared to the local Sierra Club chapters, whose hate and bad vibes apparently transcends even Christmas!

4Xsummit-- interesting post! Please tell me what the local Sierra Club chapters are doing that's so rude? Are they blocking the trail too? I have no problem if hikers want to view it as a race-- as long as they are going faster than you, let them stay in front. But slow hikers need to stand aside. It's not just common courtesy, it's logic. What did the seniors do to you, not step aside and make snotty comments? And what about the Sierra Club hikers? Are they like this too?

My experience with these people, serving under the mainly pretense of "planet," goes back some 33 years. While there have been more civil times, currently I am under a ban and boycott by what would be my home chapter. So, instead of our climbing, hiking, and skiing together, as "one race, one planet," as they have said, nothing much about "explore, enjoy, and protect," and all, ever happens as we once had it going.

Therefore, so many of us are prevented from organizing the very hikes, climbs, and other activities we were once famous for! As an organization, the local leadership has sought to keep hikers, and all, from hiking at all, let alone blocking a trail!

Enough of them.

Yes, those tourist people were very rude. I'd have pushed through them as soon as I saw the situation. Seems even if you could have said, "please," in their own language, with a good intent, that wouldn't have done anything.

The seniors incident on the trail near Sedona was back in winter 2002, so I can't remember all the details.

We all need to remember that not all of us are considerate, civil backcountry users. Some of these people are doing this for the first time, with assorted preconceptions and probable disinformation that some people are primed and ready to spread.

I do a lot of off-season hiking along the local bike trail, and signs advise hikers to stay off the pavement and on the gravel shoulder. Few do this, despite painted "rules" every so often on the paved bike trail. If a group of more than two walkers choose to walk on the bike trail, they effectively block the trail for cyclists. I used to bike a lot, and it is an aggravation to have to stop or slow for walkers, with some groups making it physically impossible to pass. Walking on the shoulder, I've had mountain bikers veer off the pavement onto the shoulder, headed at top speed straight toward myself. Once, I had to jump out of the way.

I'd think it would be common sense to allow people to pass, but as that isn't or can't be posted on all trails, so the anarchy goes. I've never hiked very far on the Grand Canyon trail you speak of, but I see there is only so much room.

My preference is to hike and climb cross-country, which a peak hike will afford me. If you dislike the crowds of poorly behaved tourists and others, head for more isolated and remote trails, as I have tried to do. Trouble with this is if you are injured or immobilized, while soloing, it may be a long while before anyone comes by!

On popular national park trails, you will encounter, once in awhile, these kinds of hikers. I am assailed by people wanting to know which way to go, begging for food and water, even defecating directly on the trail. It's a shame that there are such people, but that's humanity. The Whitney trail, at its lower end, is such a magnet for persons wanting to race up the peak to "beat" everyone else, and to engage in blocking faster hikers. It isn't "fair," by some people, that other people are faster hikers, so thus the aggressive behavior. We never made this world, and not everything is fair.

I had to hike with people who would dump most everything out of their packs to speed ahead and thusly claim "how fast they were, beating the 'Sierra Club'" up their own peak. We are sticking together as a group, and often carrying weighty emergency gear, with food and spare items to share, but it all is declared a "fair contest" to get to the top first. "Cheating to win" is a sad sort of "acceptable" means to degrade and prevail over others, but that is life.

All I can say is with the deep Sierra backcountry, and on the truly wilderness peaks, you won't find those kinds of people!

"It isn't "fair," by some people, that other people are faster hikers, so thus the aggressive behavior."

Excellent point, thanks for sharing all this, very interesting. I think you might have hit the nail on the head here. I can't believe the ego of these non-hikers thinking they're going to beat a seasoned hiker on any trail with elevation gain or distance. Catch a clue, people!

So is it common for slow hikers to deliberately obstruct the trail because they regard it as a race? I've seen this very rarely, mostly only on popular tourist type of trails, and the Grand Canyon would be one of those touristy trails. I call the non hikers at the beginning of popular trails "tourons," which is a combo of tourist and moron!

The Japanese gals blocking the trail with their arms is pretty brazen. I've never seen this, though I have seen people bunch up and never move over and chuckle diabolically when I sigh loudly, cough and try to elbow through. I've been obstructed a bunch of times, but only on popular trails. In the middle of the JMT you'd never get this, there's only seasoned people out there or people with sense enough not to try to compete with everyone else. People are competitive I guess, but I can't understand competing on a hiking trail for crying out loud.

While who knows what is in a tourist's mind, perhaps GCH misunderstood these pitiful tourists. Could they have been lost or tired? Did they attempt to communicate anything? Is this point a long way from the cars?

The term, "dozo ("please," I think)" may have sufficed to get you by them, with perhaps some sign language necessary. Maybe they wanted GCH to carry them back up or something? Yes, strange, but tourists do weird things.

From the account GCH gives, they were quite rude people. I now doubt they were trying to race up the hill, but who knows? I just have had so many hikers try to out-do myself, as I am striving for an ambitious peak goal of which I've made little progress over the last few years.

I once read of an invitation to a famous climber to help complete climbing all of the Seven Summits, on one of the continental highpoints. When the person to complete this goal, first, found out that his invitee would then have surpassed him as the leader in this peak race, the invitation was quickly withdrawn.

Certainly I have my detractors, and in my peak club, I am getting the feeling that it would not be liked for me to attain my milestone peak goal. Or is this a bad thought? I need just four more peaks, and although I climbed one of them last spring, I can probably do them all in a week or so, at a leisurely schedule. I decline to solo them since they are rated on the difficult side. People connected with me must know this. So is this poor cameraderie or what?

Hey, and there is such a thing as a behaviorist term for this obstructionism. Walking in the mall here in town, I find many groups of youths do not move aside when there is a walking conflict. With possible deadly weapons being carried, I move aside or otherwise avoid them. Maybe "territoriality" is the term.

As it gets easier for people to visit our parks, such elements may get worse and worse, for all of us old-time hikers. A major green group received some criticism for bringing up such urban youth to the mountains. Some people are just plain unreformable, and given a choice, will lead a life of crime and welfare. Many do not know any better, thanks to our school system in CA.

GCH, you are lucky those Japanese tourists weren't going to rob or attack you. Such a small thing about trail right-of-way will annoy some of us, but things are much worse elsewhere. Let's all be grateful we still have a fairly safe backcountry to enjoy!

As already mentioned above, the "touron" sort of attitude is one that you will find 99% of the time in the tourist destinations like Yosemite, Grand Canyon, Teton's, Redwoods, etc. Getting deep into the backcountry is the best way to avoid the idiocy.

My story has to do with Yosemite. I've told this story for years and I get the same reaction everytime. I'm sure you all will say the same thing.

About ten years ago, while hiking up to Half Dome, I found a discarded Starburst wrapper, thinking that it probably fell out of the consumers pocket, I picked it up and continued on my way. Coming around a bend on the trail, I came across another one. A little further up the trail another one, then another and another and so on.
Now I knew these discarded wrappers were no mistake and I was getting P.O.'d. Coming to a level area I walked closer to a group of four "hikers" that were half standing in the trail, half sitting on a log.
Then I saw it, the culprit. A man holding a Starburst package, smoking and speaking German.
As I got closer, he unwrapped what turned out to be his last Starburst, he placed it in his mouth, then crumpled up the last wrapper and empty packaging and threw it on the forest floor. Now I was steaming mad. I dropped my pack and stormed over to the group and said to the smoker-German " What the he$$ do you think you are doing?". He looked up at me blankly. "Why are you throwing your wrappers on the ground?", I continued.Then the man in his best English says, "Hey mon, Zee park people will clean zis up". I said" Are you crazy, we are 6 miles from the nearest trailhead and it is not the job of the rangers to pick up after your laziness". Then one of his friends came up from behind and chimed in with " Dude, don't blow a fuse, ha, ha, ha."
Now, I'm not a proponent of violence, but, If I had a gun at this point I would of taken it out.

Then I said " This is one of the most pristine places on the Earth and it's people like you that are destroying it. Why don't you people go back home and ruin your own country, Yosemite doesn't need people like you choking it with litter".
Then, like a knight in shining armor a park ranger came sauntering down the mountain, with what turned out to be the rest of this German tourist group. Apparently, they were caught discarding their cigarette butts higher up and the park ranger was escorting them back to the trail head.
As the ranger got nearer I told them of what I had witnessed and what their callous comments were to me. The ranger asked the German if my story was true, he said yes, the ranger told them to pick up their things and start heading back to the trailhead. Now the ranger was escorting nine German tourists back to the trailhead by himself. Just as I thought to my self that he was grossly out numbered the ranger asked me if I woulnd't mind accompanying him back to the trail head. I said I would be delighted to. All the way back the Germans were talking in their native tounge, laughing, glancing back at us and sneering. I of course, couldn't understand a word they were saying, but I knew they were talking about us.
As we got back to the trailhead, the ranger, in perfect German says, I don't appreciate you talking about us like that, it shows great dis-respect. I also don't appreciate your great disregard for the natural beauty that Yosemite has to offer. Your littering of cigarettes and candy wrappers is not acceptable and is in gross violation of federal law. All of you take out your passports now and hand them over". He proceeded to write citations to the Startburst man and two to the smokers in the other group. He handed the passports back and told them to stay off the trails if they couldn't help from littering. He sent them on their way and as they hopped on the tourist bus, they disappeared and I never saw them again.
The ranger thanked me for my help and asked if I wanted to go get an ice-cream, on him. I said sure and we had huge ice creams at Happy Ilsles over talk of backpacking adventures and stories of thoughtless tourists.

Thats' my story, long, I know, but thanks for reading.

Tourists in high heels would not surprise me. In November 2000 I was coming up the Bright Angel trail which was totally covered in packed snow and ice well past the 3 mile mark. At 2+ miles from the top I passed 2 couples dressed in smart and expensive looking suits and dresses. The trail was tough going with good boots and hiking poles and I have no idea how these couples got down as far with their footwear. It was sunset before I got to the rim so they will have been mighty cold by the time they made it up. However, they did not block the trail so at least they had manners if not common sense.

As for high heels at the Grand Canyon, this is not at all unusual. I hike in the canyon about 10 times each year and have seen unbelievable outfits on the Bright Angel Trail, including a man in a tuxedo, a woman in a long dress with spike heels and various other ridiculous get-ups. It's common to see people in suits and fancy attire. For those of you who have never hiked in the canyon, there are several hotels directly on the rim, within 30 feet of the trail, and also The Arizona Steakhouse, a nice restaurant within 30 feet of the Bright Angel Trailhead. There's also an artist's studio within 5 feet of the trailhead. This alone brings out tons of people who normally would never get within 100 miles of an esteablished trailhead.

So you see all these people who have never hiked propelling themselves down the trail, probably thinking, "Hey, I had a big meal, better burn of those calories." Other popular hikes in the national parks can't begin to compete with the amount of unfit, unprepared people who flood into the canyon because civilization is literally on top of the trailhead.

If you hike on the North Kaibab Trail at the North rim, you won't encounter the same types of weird outfits and looky-loo "hikers." The North Rim only gets 10% of the total visitation to the Grand Canyon and more serious types inhabit the North Kaibab trail.

Whether Grand Canyon Hiker was going for a PR or not, those Japanese "tourons" (like that new word!)had no business blocking his progress. I've encountered lots of Asian tourists at the Grand Canyon and most have been respectful, but none ever stand aside. Maybe it's a cultural thing, or just plain ignorance of what we hikers assume other people should know. Plenty of American tourists do the same thing.

None of these "tourons" at the Grand Canyon know to yield to uphill hikers. I do rim to rim to rim and after 48 miles, believe me, the last thing you're inclined to do is give way to tourists barelling downhill when you've been on the trail 20 hours. Last year a French guy was coming down as I was approaching the end of the hike. He just slammed right into me, but he got the worse of it because my pack hit him pretty heavily in his side. Ha ha! He was wearing suede shoes with a heel, fancy leather pants and silk shirt, hardly hiker-friendly attire.

Maybe the Japanese ladies were drunk? Especially if this was Thanksgiving, the steakhouse on the rim serves up plenty of hard booze and I've seen more than one looped hiker on the Bright Angel Trail. Just a thought.

Random thoughts: (1)the Half Dome story was great, really enjoyed that. I've encountered some very rude German hikers, most of them smoking. I can say that because I was born in Germany to German parents, so I feel OK about ripping them, since I am one myself. Anyone who litters on a trail should be kicked off and booted from the park.

(2) I've hiked in the grand canyon a bunch of times. I restrict hikes now to the S. kaibab trail because of the stuff the other people here have been talking about. The bright angel trail is crammed with folks who have no business being there. Not only have I seen someone in a tux -- I think he was a waiter -- I have seen dozens of women and men in high heels, boots, flip flops and any other crazy shoe you care to name. They block the trail, walk in huge groups which never move to the side -- we're talking 25 people in a tour group for instance -- and others.

I am reminded of something that comes close to what GHC was talking about. About 4 years ago in Nov., I was coming up the bright angel about halfway between the 3 mile house and the 1.5 house. You still get oodles of tourists there, even though you're 2,000+ ft. below the rim. There was a German tour group on the trail, about 25 people. It was h--- to pass the group, but I was aggresive and did so, because they were stopping and not making progress. But the lead guide had two umbrellas and he stuck them out on either side of him and blocked the trail with an umbrella. Luckily, the trail widened out at that part and I just sideswiped him and continued on my way. Still don't know what that guy was trying to pull.

(3) Hikin' Bob- not sure I understood your post, but are you saying it's OK for clowns to block the trail when someone is going for a pr on a trail? What is it about fast hikers that bugs you? I wouldn't bug you, my pr for Whitney is a snail like 14 hours, but I always get over for everyone faster than me, which is basically everyone and their granny.

vinze, would you take 10 seconds to politely explain the rules to someone who doesn't understand English? I would.

After that, if the transgressions continued, take their picture. People who are knowingly rude would either take flight, stop their behavior (and talk behind your back as you scamper up the trail) or start a fight. Women in high heels at the 3-mile shack would not take flight nor would they start a fight.

If this fails, I'm sure you have in your backpack a pair of vocal cords and a cache of vocabulary you don't use very often. I most certainly do, I don't use them often any more.

The camera usually does the trick.

This is definitely an aside from the original topic, but...

4Xsummit, you made the observation, "Some people are just plain unreformable, and given a choice, will lead a life of crime and welfare. Many do not know any better, thanks to our school system in CA". This related to some urban youth being in the mountains. I've watched the board for awhile now, have made a couple of contributions, but for the most part simply enjoy picking up beta on the mountain, reading trip reports, and getting hyped up for our next adventure on Whitney. Here, though, I need to reply to your post. I've been a public school teacher for a good many years, and I've seen literally hundreds students pass through my classroom doors. Most are headed down a productive path, and will do well. Some, as you rightly point out, seem unreformable, and will likely choose a destructive life. I've seen one or two that seemed to be heading straight for the grave, or cause that for others. Is this the fault of the schools? I can honestly say that, by the time some of these students get to me, the damage has been done. Schools don't exist in a vacuum, without being influenced by other factors such as poverty, uncaring parents and families, ready availability of dangerous substances, or any other influences you'd care to think of. These all might play a part in young people becoming "unreformable". Do schools need to be improved? You bet. There's a lot we can do better. But our main job is to guide and educate young people. We don't raise them. We can't possibly right or erase all the garbage that some of these kids have to live with when they're not in school. We can be there for them as much as we can, but the main source of societal and value learning is still the parents and family. The same holds true for my own two kids, who are learning to love being in the hills as much as their parents do. They'll be leaving me in their trail dust before too much longer, but they'll be learning some trail courtesy from ME as well.

Happy hiking!

Well said MountainBob. I too am a public school teacher and you've hit the nail on the head. I have noticed in the related stories the lack of an "excuse me, may I please pass by?" Usually works for me.

I lived in Japan for six years and I can tell you that I have found the Japanese, as a whole, to be far more polite and friendly on the trail than my fellow Americans. That said, there are certainly exceptions. Having spent a significant amount of time in other Asian countries, I would say that what you saw on the trail may be more typical of what I've seen in Asian countries other than Japan. Are you sure these people we're Japanese?

4XSummit,

Please please please do not use the word "dozo" when asking to go around a group of Japanese hikers. While it is true that this can be literally translated as "please", you have to keep in mind that the Japanese use 3 different words for our word "please". "Kudasai" will work better in this situation. Japanese people use the word "Dozo" when holding a door for someone or allowing them to go first. (as in "Please, after you") Saying "dozo" will indicate that you are encouraging them to go ahead of you which is exactly what you don't want.

If you run into a group of rude hikers like this, a helpful phrase is, "Do-ite kudasai". Which means "get out of my way please". (In a less than polite tone)