Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Mountaineering Schools

Does anyone have any reccommendations for courses or guide service programs in mountaineering skills including snow and glacier travel, self arrest techniques, ice axe and crampon use, etcetera? I am looking for a program that would be available early next year in either the Cascades or the Sierras. I've checked out quite a few programs including NOLS, Alpine Ascents, and Mountain Madness. Does anyone have anything good or bad to say about these programs?

I have heard good things about NOLS from people whose opinions I trust, although I haven't taken any of their courses.

Up in the Cascades, Rainier Mountaineering (RMI) offers courses plus climbs of Rainier. They seem to get mixed reviews on the highpointers club <a href="http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/3897">message board</a>, depending on which leader/guide a particular person happened to work with.

Also worth checking out your local Sierra Club chapter. They often do basic hands-on (feet-on?) mountaineering and climbing training, if you get past the political posturing that seems to have become what the SC is more famous for these days than actually being out in the mountains.

SpankyBob, there are plenty of good mountaineering training schools. The ones operating as National Park concessionaires are the best and most responsible. Yosemite Mountaineering School taught me the basics, and I went on to safely do a small number of 5th class climbs, then some easier mountaineering. They handle quite a number of people, so are very professional.

You can find other schools, but watch out for some Sierra Club chapters. I've found there are people who claim expertise, quite falsely, and will hurt or kill you. They don't really care. Their insurance will pay. They may quote impressive credentials, all granted and "confirmed" by whatever officers, but you really should check up on them. It's your life; don't throw it away so malicious people can claim another polluter dead!

The largest chapter, in the Southern CA area, has an official training program which was quite reasonable before their insurance restrictions. Essentially, now, the Club does not support rock climbing or similar activities, except on a highly limited basis. The Southern CA chapter has their best climbers, but you do impose on their time and effort trying to learn what you should already know. Again, with other chapters, and not being able to mention names, you have to watch out for certain individuals.

I'd again strongly suggest staying away from the other chapters, except maybe for peak hikes, as with the legal waivers you are required to sign, they can't be legally held liable for whatever they do to you. As said, there are plenty of people to declare themselves "experts," many with Club accorded credits or backing, and you'll just have to watch out. The worst CA mountaineering accident occured on a Sierra Club trip (4 dead), and while that may be a good lesson for newer climbers, that fact doesn't seem to get around.

I am planning to take some classes through Sierra Mountain Center in Bishop, CA. They have some very experienced guides and I've been talking to them though e-mail about what it takes to become a mountaineer. I've got it easy. I just started college and my major is goegraphy but I'm going to switch to Parks and Recreation Management in order to take classes that will help my become an outdoor guide straight out of college.

Matt

Rainier Mountaineering Inc (RMI) has been guiding Mt. Rainier since the late 60's. They offer classes on glacier/snow travel, self-arrest, crevasses, etc. In fact when they guide their trips to the summit, prospective climbers have to go through a 1 day training before being led up the mountain. I've never done Rainier, nor taken one of their classes, but they are highly respected.

SpankyBob, I did Rainier and did it through RMI's training course. I highly recommend RMI's expertise. Many world-class climbers have gone thru their training programs.

SpankyBob, there are a couple of outstanding guide services in the Eastern Sierra. Sierra Mountaineering International, run by Everest summiter Kurt Wedberg, is one. I personally know people who have taken courses, or climbed with him, and they have nothing but great things to say. He does special avalanche courses for the California Mountaineering Club, and the Sierra Peak Section of the Angeles Chapter of the Sierra Club.
http://www.sierramountaineering.com

Sierra Mountain Center is reputed to be excellent as well, but I have no personal experience.

4xsummit hit the nail on the head regarding the Sierra Club. I was a BMTC instructor for them back in the late 70's. I quickly figured out that most of them didn't really know what they were doing, and as a beginner, you're not likely to know the difference between good and bad advice. I stopped climbing with Sierra Club folks after one of them nearly got me killed on Temple Crag, and forced us into an unplanned bivvy to boot.

If you're really interested in glacier travel as opposed to snow travel, I'd strongly encourage you to head straight to one of the Cascades-based outfits. Also plan on spending a lot of time learning and relearning crevasse rescue, glacier route finding, and recognizing objective hazards like seracs and cornices. Some avalanch training wouldn't hurt either. I don't have any experience with RMI, but I have taken one of American Alpine Institute's alpine ice courses. AAI seems to be a pretty well-run outfit. I recommend their Mt Baker courses, since you spend a minimum amount of time on the approach, and get to concentrate on learning skills.

If all you're interested in is snow travel like you find in the Sierra and other minimally glaciated ranges, then I'd recommend anything offered by Sierra Mountain Center. SMC can of course provide top-notch training in any area, but since they're based in Bishop you won't be paying for their guide's travel if you take a course in the Sierra. I took an ice climbing seminar from SP Parker, who co-owns SMC, and he's a great instructor. Very safety-conscious, and willing to challenge you.

Finally, whatever outfit you choose, I recommend the following: Be in great shape so you can concentrate on learning rather than catching your breath; read whatever materials they recommend before your trip; and ask *lots* of questions.

I want to thank everyone for their advice. My job and family commitments makes taking much more than a week off impractical. Unfortunately that eliminates NOLS as an option. I've known some NOLS instructors and graduates and think their training is generally top notch. I'd like to stay in the state and Sierra Mountain Center has some good programs and I've heard nothing but good things about them, but my immediate goal is to climb several peaks in the Cascades so I'll probably go with a group that has a large program base there. I'm leaning towards AAI's 6 day Cascades course (I think this is the Mount Baker option mentioned by Steve Larson). RMI has a great reputation, but their courses tend to be one day events or major epics preparing for their Denali trips. AAI also has some other trips such as a week in the Alps that are enticing and require their six day Cascades course or similar experience as a prerequisite. Since most of the courses start in spring of next year I have the winter to get into better shape. Many of you noted that it's better to be in great shape before the trip so you can pay more attention to the information and training rather than gasping for breath. I think that makes sense and I've already started. I've found "Climbing:Training for Peak Performance" by Clyde Soles to be informative, but I've not had a real chance to test everything he has to say.

I also appreciate the information about Sierra Club trips. I used to be a fairly active member of the Angeles chapter of the Sierra Club until I quit because of political issues. I found the members to be nice, but I found their skills questionable. Years ago I worked for a wilderness program modeled loosely on Outward Bound. I was a very low level employee, but I got to hang with the instructors on our days off and we would rock climb (very different from climbing on snow, glaciers, or ice) in Yosemite or hike in the Sierras. I learned alot from my companions on those trips and they never bragged about their skills or wilderness accomplishments. I found quite a few people on the Sierra Club trips would boast of completing this hike or that climb and then proclaim themselves to be experts. I went on only a few trips before realizing that many of them were headed for calamities of some type or another. It's interesting to hear that others had the same view.

I just re-read my previous post and want to add that I think there are some very accomplished wilderness leaders in the Sierra Club and I do not mean to detract from them. There are also some that are not that skilled. My comments were not meant to criticize the Sierra Club or its outings, only to point out that Sierra Club leaders are not professional guides and that some may not have the skill set one might expect or a trip leader. Perhaps the comparison between volunteer group leader and professional guide is not really fair, but when you consider that both carry roughly the same responsibility in leading a group I think the comparison is relevant and something to keep in mind when trying to increase your own wilderness skills in a safe manner.

I climbed Rainier with RMI and would highly recommend them. Very professional organization. The one day school is good as is the 5-day seminar. They tend to get a bad rap among climbers because they take such large groups up the DC route. I'd also recommend American Alpine Institute. They'll cover all the things you asked about.

SpankyBob,

A couple of things:

If you do decide to do an AAI trip, let me know (I'm at denali@pacbell.net), and if you feel comfortable with it please mention my name if they asked you who referred you to them (I think they offer a break on trip fees if you refer them new business--blatant self interest, I know, but hey, I'll take what I can get...)

Training. You can get lost in this. Here's my synopsis of what I've learned from many books, and several years of training towards a variety of objectives:

Training is very specific to whatever you plan to do. For a week on Mt. Baker or Rainier I've found that running and hiking (plenty of hills, wieghted pack is a big plus, but not always necessary) to be far and away the best. Three days a week, four max. Consistency pays off. Progress slowly, no more than 5-10% increase in training volume week-to-week. Variety. Strength training is okay, but weight-bearing aerobic training takes priority. Measure your progress, but not obsessively. From time to time see how fast you can do a particular workout. It's gratifying to see the improvement, helps maintain motivation. If you start feeling tired all the time, or get sick more often than usual, you're pushing too hard and/or not getting enough sleep. Back off, rest, and pick up at a slightly lower pace.

Hope this helps.

Steve

the Sierra Club is even more enept than the forrest service at their job.
Once a proud organation who looked out for outdoors people and the enviorment , they have become like the ELF a bunch of fruit cakes.
The forrest service has degraded to the point of being absurd.

Hey, let's not attack the good people of the Sierra Club. If not for them, there'd be a 4WD road to the top. Or a tramway!

While poor sorts of people have taken over one chapter, most of the rest are probably fine. And hey, I'm being attacked again by an imposter (see Mt. Muir post). Flames are well deserved for some, but how do I get people to climb class 3 or what without mentioning the disinformation that others spread?

Thanks for the support from some of you, but SB, do checkout your opportunities to climb and be trained. Some people, like maybe this imposter, will train you wrong, and dead wrong. Like they've said, "that's what you get for paying nothing."

I'd be pleased to show you the ropes, but there are liability problems. If I tell you how to do something, and you get hurt or killed (easy to do in this sport), or get someone else hurt or killed, who's responsible? And even if I tell you right!

Try a college or university, too. Some of them may still have some kind of courses, and although there have been some really deadly mistakes by some of them, they may be worth it for doing some easier climbing.

I'd suggest reading the literature before you take a course. Plenty of fine books on how to climb. But don't ever try to do class 3 or more without someone to help you, and someone that you can really trust. Do not be naive and put your faith in people who have little or no experience, and try to con you into believing them. There are really convincing officials, with high legal credentials, who will flat out lie to you. They don't care if you die, or wind up in a wheel chair.

This Bishop outfit sounds O.K., but check out their permits to operate, and make sure their insurance is current. You may find a lot of fly-by-night businesses to take your money and run.

I again recommend the Yosemite School of Mountaineering. The best free climbers in the world might be your instructors. The Park Service approves them. The Valley is a beautiful place, and a visit is worth it. But other groups might do as well. RMI is great, too, from what I hear.

I thank everyone for his or her additional advice. I will likely follow a course of action similar to the one laid out by Steve Larson. I played volleyball in college and went on after graduating to make some money in the sport as a player and coach. (My nickname, SpankyBob, comes from playing volleyball.) I do not claim to be an exercise physiologist, but I have seen what seems to work and not work in terms of conditioning.

One of the most common problems I see people make when they decide to "get into shape" is that they start too hard and then burn out because they are overworking their body or have strained a muscle. As Steve mentioned, it is best to start easy and build up your conditioning. The novice hiker wanting to summit Whitney that begins his or her training with a 22 mile hike might be so sore or burned out that they will not press through with sufficient conditioning or just quit altogether. They would be better served by starting their hiking with a few moderate miles of hiking and then building on that. Physical conditioning is the process of gradually getting your body conditioned to increasingly greater physical exertion or maintaining your body's ability to perform a high level of work.

I am fortunate enough to live near the beach and can use running in the soft sand as a means of conditioning. I also live near a very high sand dune that I climb while carrying a pack. The soft sand is easy on my joints and much like walking up a snow or scree slope. I've been gradually building my capacity by adding a pound or two every couple of weeks. My goal is to continue to add weight until I'm training on the sand hill with 50+ pounds. One of my hiking friends trains during the winter by carrying his pack loaded with 6-8 gallons (55-70 pounds with pack) of water around the hills and canyons of Palos Verdes. He told me that he started carrying only a gallon of water and it took him a full winter of training to get to that point where he can carry that much weight with out overtaxing himself.

4X summit has some excellent points about reading good books and I agree with him or her that the Yosemite Mountaineering School has exceptional instructors, but I don't believe their strength is in areas like snow or glacier travel. Because I'm trying to build my skills so that I can climb peaks like Rainier and Shasta, which have substantial snowfields and glaciers, Yosemite Mountaineering is probably not my best choice. I am also familiar with rock climbing and have lead long, multi-pitch climbs in the past.

Steve Larson- I'll try to give you a plug with AAI, but they were recommended to me originally by someone else and they have alse asked for a plug.

I took a four day mountaineering course with Sierra Mountain Center this summer and was very pleased with the skills and knowledge of the guide and the emphasis on safety. They have a good student to guide ratio (maximum of 3 to 1) so there was always enough time for the guide to work one on one.

I got the basic rock climing and ice and crampon introduction that I was looking for and always felt confident that the guide was looking out for my safety.

As far as training, consistency goes a long way. Letting yourself get out of shape and then trying to pound yourself back into shape is a whole lot harder than maintaining a decent background level of conditioning.

Back about 1985 when I first started trying to climb Mt. Ritter, I pushed myself into shape and paid for it with a torn Achilles tendon a couple of weeks after the first attempt at <a href="http://www.mtritter.org">"my" mountain</a>.

Since then, I've worked my way into a consistent 5-day routine of walking (running is not a good idea after an Achilles repair), NordicTrak and swimming. On the far side of 50, I'm never going to be any kind of speed demon, but I have the aerobic capacity to maintain a decent pace with or without a full pack.

About 25-30 minutes per day, walking 3x, with NT and swimming each once/week. Pace, about 2 miles of walking or 3/4 mile of swimming in that time. Good enough that when Nathan and I did Mt. Elbert (CO) this summer, we hiked trailhead to summit (4.5 miles and about 4,500' gain) in 4 hours flat.

Now, when I decide to try McKinley, I'll up the training intensity a bit more, but anywhere in the lower 48, I'm good to go any time.

Spanky Bob> There are a number of guide services out there, and many of the well known ones have been mentioned. RMI, Mountain Madness, Mountain Link, etc. are all well established outfits with many different programs for various skill levels.

If you want to stay local, consider a course through REI Adventures (www.reiadventures.com) or stay local in California. Shasta Mountian Guides offer excellent beginner and intermediate courses on a great mountain. Glacier travel and crevasse rescue, crampon and ice axe use are all covered in their three or four day seminars. They are also very reasonable priced. I highly recommend them.

I agree with the recommendations of RMI. Two other excellent places that I would recommend are Exum Mountain Guides in the Tetons and the guides in Switzerland. The Exum Guides are amoung the best climbers in the world and many have summitted Everest. Switzerland has a long climbing tradition and the guides are probably the best in the world. There are also an incredible array of climbs to choose from. The guides put safety first and are true professionals, not just part-time climbers/instructors. While it is a long way to go, image learning proper climbing technique while climbing the Jungfrau, Monch, Eiger and Matterhorn. If you are interested in a Swiss guide, give me your email address and I'll give you some names.

Another recommendation for Sierra Mountaineering International out of Bishop (see Ken on 10/6). I had an excellent experience.