Hi Shin,
Great Pics as usual.... Hopefully I'll be able to do Baldy in a week or 2. Recovering from a torn meniscus. One note and I'm sure Doug will chime in also. Glissading with crampons on is a potential disaster. A hiker several years ago almost bled to death after stabbing his leg in a major artery. Remove your crampons prior to your slide. See you soon. Safe and Happy hiking. Rick

Very surprised to see people glissading with crampons on. It is a basic no-no. And photographing it from below? Yes, I know it may be a slow under-control glissade. But that is a bit like running a stop sign because you see no traffic on the cross-street.

Hi Ric and Edw and many others,
I expected your concerns about glissading with crampons.
We glissaded the channel of 1-2-foot deep soft snow on top of base layer of snow on the south facing slope of elevation 9200-8700 with 2 sections. I raised my both feet up in the air to avoid touching the snow.
This wasn't the case of slip and fall on icy steep slope and failing self-arrest and ended up in the fashion of glissading down or daring climbers using aggressive ice axe running down the icy slope ended up on glissading. If I ended up in this situation, should I change from crampons to mocrospike in the middle of the situation? I am not talking about this situation.

Before we glissaded down, we discussed all about what to expect from glissading and its consequences. The key factor is the snow condition which provides good friction to controls the decent. Many people think how fast they can come down on steep slope. Their mind is occupied with speed , NOT us. We didn't do it in the careless manner at all.
One of our friend didn't have micorspike. Some used pole not ice axe.
We tried to practice all our skills under controlled manner, NOT on the actual situations.
Thank you very much for your safety concerns.

We were glissading down Mt. Bradley in the Sierras once. Perfect conditions. Glissading down a chute we had ascended in the morning. Broad, deep snow, no rocks showing. I was the second person, about 30 yards above the first. I looked up and around to enjoy the view. When I looked down again, the first person, Dave, was at the bottom of the chute and the size of an ant. He had clearly hit a patch of ice we had not seen. I rolled over and self-arrested. Then stood up and tried to warn the people above, by shouting and waving. No good, I was standing below a concave curve in the chute. People rocketed past me in various stages of uncontrol. One person, a peanut-size woman, was doing cartwheels in the air as she passed me. Fortunately, no one was injured. If we had been wearing our crampons, some would have been.

I climbed with RJ Secor in those days, he was about 19 years old. In those days, we used our crampons less and changed them more, because they did not have anti-balling plates.

Even if the conditions for glissading with crampons were safe, I would be concerned about the example it sets for onlookers who don't have the same experience and judgement.

Hi Edw,
I removed all glissading pictures out of my photo albums.
This is what I can do. Please do not make a comment about my case anymore. Please do not quate or compare my case with other cases. If I have caused a negative effect to the community, I will apologize. I don't feel comfortable at all. If I drive through a red traffic light, I will go to the court in Lone Pine and pay the ticket. I won't make any more ignorant trip report in the future.
Have a great hike.

Somewhere on this message board, or maybe his photo website, there's an x-ray image of Bob R's mangled foot...from a glissade with crampons...

I believe it was only going to be a short one...

Even the Best make mistakes once in a while...

Hi Doug,
Please block my post from now on.
I might have irritated many WPSMB members.
Thank you very much for your kind friendship for many years.
Shin

No need for an apology, Shin. It is a matter of opinion, that is what discussion boards are for. I have no doubt that your glissade was safe, I was only concerned about the conclusions a less experienced climber might draw. You are the heart of Snow Conditions on Baldy, and I think everybody who follows it is very grateful to you for your posts, and looks forward to the next one.

Shin you keep posting. You did nothing wrong. I feel some others overstepped this topic and stepped on you.
You posts are informative and used by many.

Hey Shin I use my 24 hour rule and if rattledI don't post on a topic ,this is one of those times .You have expressed what your group was doing and now others have commented.
This topic pops up and the same discussions .Don't take the discussion personal.For People renting/purchasing crampons they have the responsibility to establish when and how the product is used.

One of the things I like about Shin's posts is that he does comment on issues of safety and courtesy, as well as snow conditions and great photos. I think that is appropriate on a discussion board, and not to be discouraged.

Every moment of every day we calculate risk. [Insert list of everything here, from free soloing to getting out of bed.] And everyone has their own summations which they measure against their own thresholds. Most of us on here know the flexibility of those thresholds, and know when to extend them and when to contract them. These are personal and individual decisions, just like someone watching someone do something risky: they in turn must decide to follow suit within their own parameters.

This idea that an experienced individual in the wilderness, who makes a decision based on their own risk assessment, is "wrong" is dangerous in itself. Was it informed? Yes. Was it risky? Yes. Was it illegal? No.

Comparing it to running a stop sign is fallacious. Running a stop sign and risking the life of an innocent and unaware individual is both reckless and illegal. Putting the shame of endangering others on Shin because he glissaded with crampons on is not even remotely the same thing. The concern about "the example it sets for onlookers who don't have the same experience and judgement," and the pervasive worry about others mimicking behavior to their own detriment is neither Shin's responsibility nor a valid argument against his decision. I am not my brother's keeper.

Laws exist to (hopefully) protect the innocent. No experienced individual making a personal (legal) choice should be held accountable for what an ignorant person chooses to do in a similar situation. Mountaineering and climbing are risky---and so is everything else in life. Should surfers should stop surfing, because someone who can't swim thinks "I can just hold onto the board?"

Shin is a model of safety, respect, and concern for others. He’s one of the last people who deserves any amount of shame.

And yes, Richard brings up Bob R’s crampon glissade accident. Was it a mistake? No, it was an injury as the result of a risk decision. (If I roll “snake eyes” in Vegas, is that a mistake?) And did he ever glissade with crampons on again? I will not answer that publicly, but ask me in person about when it either did or didn’t happen…

Don’t Cancel Shin-san!

You’re a valued member of the MWSMB with your informative Baldy updates & photos. I’m sure you’ve inspired many folks to seek out nice adventures on Mt Baldy & the Sierra. Keep up the good work.

It’s said that going up a mountain is optional, but coming down is mandatory.

Regarding descending Mt Baldy with snowy conditions, you have a couple of options; hike down (w/ boots, microspikes, or crampons), glissade down, ski down, down-climb one of the chutes, etc. Each option has its own risks/rewards and every hiker/climber has to make their own judgement on how they are going to descend. Each hiker should use their best judgement, experience, training, reading the conditions, etc., to calculate their best choice.

Regarding glissading, as many have noted it’s generally recommended to not wear crampons while glissading as one can catch a point in the snow and then twist/break an ankle. This can happen if the snow is firmer and the slope is steep enough that it’s tricky to control the speed. I wouldn’t recommend anyone glissading the steep Baldy Bowl with crampons.

But as with most things, there are no absolutes. For example, if the snow is soft and the slope is not that steep (ie, some sections of the Mt Baldy summer trail around noon on a warm & sunny day). And sliding down this slope can be done slow & controlled, I’d say it’s as safe to glissade a soft slope with crampons on as letting some kid slide down a snow slope in an Oshkosh onesie.

I witnessed & can confirm that Shin & group descended safely, under control, and with minimal risk last Sunday.
As usual, everyone stay safe, have fun and take care,
Ricky G

Ps, Shin-san, don’t tell anyone about the Dang Queen Glissade Hour on 3-Pin Alley next Sunday…..Shhh, it’s a secret

Hey Shin,
I don't post here very often...I do read the messages here daily and have for almost 20 years now.
You have been a respected and honored presence here for a very long time and have been the unparalleled voice of experience for Mt. Baldy, as well as it's biggest ambassador. Rather than focus on one small incident that is marginally questionable, I'd like to point out the hundreds if not thousands of individuals who've benefitted from your knowledge and insight. You have, without a doubt, been instrumental in many people discovering and enjoying Baldy...and one can only guess at how many lives you may have saved over the years by providing timely up-dates about conditions and sage advice and cautions from someone who's qualifications have been earned and proven many times over.
I, for one, hope you continue here in EXACTLY the same fashion. You would be an irreplaceable loss.

Hi Shin,

We've crossed paths on Baldy for many years now, and I've always been impressed with your helpful, kind, and knowledgeable advice. You've been a model of prudence and safety, and I'm sure you decided to glissade with crampons after considering the possible risks. For what's it worth, I glissaded down the west bowl Saturday in soft snow and thought the conditions ideal for a safe ride.

Please don't stop posting to this board!

See you on the mountain soon. All the best,

Mac

Hi Shin,
First ... Keep posting... Your advice and instructions is the reason I hike Baldy. 2... Since I was the first to comment on the crampon glissading... it was not meant to critize you. As I said... it is a potentially dangerous activity which caused an serious injury that I witnessed. As you know... many first timers don equipment that they don't know how to use. Just trying to have the inexperienced gain some
experience without learning the hard way.
Again, Keep the posts coming. See you soon, Rick

Hi Shin,
All good things have to end sometime. I enjoyed your photos, opinions, and advice.Most of all your regular posts created a little community and sustained momentum for hiking Mt Baldy for many people.I check these boards regularly and it hasn't been the same for several years even before covid. Have you considered Instagram? Best regards and good luck!

A different perspective on this issue:
A lot of inexperienced folks read this forum to learn the very basics of mountain travel. Most have never seen a crampon, let alone put one on. It's one thing for experienced folks to describe glissading with crampons; quite another issue for the inexperienced newbie to think it's a normal way to descend.
A short "Don't try this at home without experience" statement would have eliminated the controversy. The critical comments were appropriate.

I’ve been reading Shin’s posts forever, and I enjoy them. I only met Shin once, on the Mountaineers’ Route in 2010, I think. We were the two oldest climbers on the mountain. It was nice climbing with you. Please keep posting.

I don’t feel like debating safety issues today, but here is what I do and don’t do. I don’t like glissading. You can get hurt, ruin expensive clothes, and get your ass cold and wet when staying warm and dry should be a priority. I will only glissade when the snow is so deep and soft that walking down is a poor option. I think my last glissade was on Shasta with Happy Trails in 2016. I never glissade with crampons, ever. MICROspikes and other crampon substitutes are for walking on very low angle slopes. They aren’t for mountaineering. I’ve only used mine a few times in 35 years.

Regarding Bob Pickering's interesting comments on glissading:

Buy a sheet of Cordura from Seattlefabrics.com and have a tailor sew a seat patch on your pants. Wonderful for glissading, and sitting on snow, rocks and logs. The pants sold today for snow climbing certainly do look expensive and flimsy to me.

I have seen a number of glissading accidents. Worse yet, I once met a climber whose stomach looked like it had been operated on by Frankenstein with a dull hatchet. I noticed it while he was changing shirts at our campsite on the Shepherd Pass trail. When I discreetly inquired about the cause, he said it was done by his own ice axe on Shasta.

That said, I think a glissade can be safer than walking down, done properly under good conditions. For example, descending Baldy by the ridge, you have multiple opportunities to slip or trip, and if a forward fall takes you by surprise, you may not get your ice axe into cross-body position in time. But there are basics to glissading. I saw someone tear his hands to shreds on Williamson in the Sierras because he glissaded without gloves. According to the reports, RJ Secor was wearing slick pants and not wearing a helmet (not that we ever wore helmets back in the day, but they certainly make sense in many situations).

I interpreted Shin's request to Doug as removing one post, not retiring from Snow Conditions on Baldy. I certainly hope that is the case.